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Thread: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Hmmm, let's see, I stated I did not know enough to comment on everything, but one point was easily solved.
    Your solution was myopically inapplicable to the problem at hand. The problem is larger than the one thread on the sweater you thought you could pull.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You keep on talking about stuff you clearly do not know about. Interesting differences there.
    Pretty radically inaccurate. I keep talking about the thread topic, THE WHOLE TOPIC, and you keep talking about ME.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    Is it your personal opinion that the IDF maintains that policy largely due to the aforementioned study / review of the '48 conflict?
    Perhaps. But that was an eternity ago. Technology and sophisticated weapons platforms have changed the face of modern warfare dramatically since then. There are many areas in modern warfare where women excell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    But do recall, that the OP is specifically talking about whether or not to assign females directly to attacking units.
    I think that is semantical acrobatics. Women can and do engage in combat.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    Well, it certainly is a "common" mistake. The fact that there are a few female fighter pilots, is not evidence for the assertion that females are "stronger combat pilots".
    I never said it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    That might be a good guess. What a scientist would do, would be to test that theory, rather than assume it was true. Thats why proof, is a little harder to come by than "common" sense.
    Since I am not a "scientist" common sense will have to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    Now here you are actually giving me what I requested, but I would still like to see the statistics themselves, and how real physiological differences between sexes, like tolerance to High G, are accounted for. If she's great, but passes out at 9 g when most males don't, then one High G dogfight move erases that greatness does it not ?
    You are making allot of assumptions here. Why don't you go and research the details for yourself?
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    already addressed . . .
    Tashah said that the thing you quoted is not exact

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    Perhaps. But that was an eternity ago. Technology and sophisticated weapons platforms have changed the face of modern warfare dramatically since then. There are many areas in modern warfare where women excell.
    Some of those tools have certainly changed, but how does that have any impact on this :

    The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield," Luddy said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    I think that is semantical acrobatics. Women can and do engage in combat.
    That is not really what is at issue in the OP. The OP is specifically about whether or not to assign women to units whose specific purpose is to engage and attack enemy units. Unit assignment is not merely semantics.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Females tend to have better hand eye coordination on average than males. Makes them better pilots etc.
    Really? I thought the opposite was true. My hand eye coordination sucks. I know where I want to throw a ball but it never goes there. I see a ball coming at me and I always miss it or drop it.

    If I was in combat I would be dead.


    I would chat with her when I'm feeling particularly snarky, but I wouldn't ever call her on the phone.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I never said it was.
    Yes, you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    We have female fighter pilots and have for years now. No complaints so far from the government or anyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    That is not evidence for this assertion . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    they are actually stronger in some situations such as combat pilots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Yes it is, I figured it was common sense.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Any military role should be filled depending solely on the qualifications of the applicant. Anything else will degrade quality by limiting the potential talent pool. Banning gender from combat roles needs to go, as well as having different physical requirements for each gender.

    Claiming that women have some inherent unsuitability to combat is simply untrue. Pavlichenko was a soviet female sniper in WW2 who achieved more confirmed kills (309) than any American sniper, ever . Yet, under current policies she would not be allowed join a combat unit in the U.S. or Britain. Obviously most woman (or men) would never reach that kind of skill, but a blanket ban prevents such capable women from being able to contribute.

    As far as damaging the reproduction ability of the population, such concerns are unfounded. We (at least U.S.+U.K.) are a monogamous society, we marry one other person for love, not based on optimal reproductive rates. Despite millions of men killed during WW2, we didn't see men have multiple kids with multiple wives to boost the population. In fact, having casualties match the gender proportions of our country would lead to more theoretical pairings, and thus higher birth rates.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    Ministers are to consider changing the rules limiting women's combat roles in the armed forces, the BBC has learned.

    BBC NEWS | UK | Women's front-line role reviewed

    I am curious to the positions held by members of this forum on this topic. Having been in the Marine Corps infantry and experienced combat I think this is a horribly misguided effort of egalitarianism. None of my opinions are sexist by any means.


    1. Women do not have the upper body strength equivalant to that of a man. They physically do not have the strength to effectively carry and then efficiently deploy a weapon in combat such as the Squad Automatic Weapon, AT-4, or any type of additional combat arms outside of their primary weapon. Of course there is exceptions, and I am sure some women are stronger than most of the Marines I served with, but I am speaking in general terms. When I was in Iraq I was carrying on average of 80-90 lbs of gear in 100+ degree heat, sometimes for hours. I am not looking for 'wow' or for people to think I am tough, I am merely highlighting the very realistic circumstances that need to be considered. This is the probably the pill hardest for women to swallow when discussing the debate due to the nature of it basically calling them physically inferior to men.

    2. Former head of the Army, General Sir Mike Jackson, told The Politics Show he believed any change could lead to "concerns that operational effectiveness, particularly in the infantry, could be and probably would be, jeopardised".

    History has shown that the presence of women in combat had very adverse of effect of men in combat.


    For example, it is a common misperception that Israel allows women in combat units. In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be. The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield," Luddy said.


    Debunking the Israeli 'women in combat' myth

    3. Political ramifications. The United States, or any nation for that manner is simply not ready, and will never be ready, for the sight of mothers and daughters coming home in body bags in large numbers. The obvious question then to be asked is 'What makes it acceptable to have fathers and son brought home in body bags?' The answer is that's just the way it has been, so we've grown accustomed. If women had combat roles all along then it would be a different story.


    I wouldn't want to be the one to tell this Lt. Ripley, but I will sure as hell tell it to Jessica Lynch.
    It depends on the woman/man. I have (female) friends in the army, and if I had to fight hand to hand with them, I think they'd knock me down in 3 or 4 seconds.

    I don't think that the physical difference between men and women would justify that, as many women have got a great physical condition, and are able to fight as well as men. The Russian army has used many women as snipers during WWII for example.

    Still, I think they should not risk to be killed. It's a morale and personal point of view. It may sound masochist or paternalist, but I think that, like kids, women should not be on the battlefield (well...no one should be on the battlefield...but especially women and kids)

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    Some of those tools have certainly changed, but how does that have any impact on this :

    Going to refer back to the study you keep mentioning:

    In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be.
    Note the bolded part. 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Sex roles, interaction among the sexus, social ethics and more have changed significantly since then. It's time to do a new study, this one is useless in a modern context.

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