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Thread: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Thanks for that.
    So the men are the problem basically ...
    Since men make up the lions share of any military ground forces, don't you see that as a small problem?
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidwar View Post
    And I explained why your seemingly sensible solution does not work in the applicable context. If you don't care about the big picture, thats fine, but then you shouldn't object when I merely explain why your suggestion does not work in the big picture. Its a discussion of the big picture, after all. My post was there for all to read, not just you.
    I never made any claim that it addressed the big picture. That is why I did not quote the whole post, and specifically ensured that it was clear I was only talking about one bullet point.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Females have better hand eye coordination. Makes them better pilots etc.
    Thats not evidence, that is more anecdote.

    Show me statistics of female fighter pilots repeatedly and consistantly out-performing males in practice sessions at full speed and high G.

    There's the bar, now jump over it.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Would it?
    I'd find it acceptable.
    I doubt they choose males to be soldiers purely because they have penises. They go through some form of training/selection program i'm sure. Why any different for women?

    Then it is not her that is the problem but her unit. If she can handle herself, why would she jepoardize a mission?
    I don't think men's penises is what qualifies them for being placed in combat roles above other qualities. I also don't think men were 'chosen' to serve as the infantry in combat and that some type of historical, or perhaps anthropological study would give evidence that this was due to them protecting the women, the young, the tribe etc.

    I do agree it may be the unit and the males fault, and not that of the female, but this doesn't change the fact it still jeopardizes the mission.
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    Question Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I never made any claim that it addressed the big picture.
    True.

    Again I ask, if you don't care about the big picture, and don't want to address it, why do you care if I examine and discard your suggestion in the big picture context ?

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    Contrary to what is posted in the OP, the IDF does indeed have females in ground combat roles. There are also female fighter jet and helicopter pilots.
    Why has no one commented on this yet? The OP is flawed, that really throws in question any conclusion drawn from the OP.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Except a member of the IDF claims this is not accurate.
    A member doesn't carry the same validity as a comprehensivne national study, provided in the link I posted.
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I kinda want to add to this that while I have no experience in combat myself, I have spent a very large amount of time working the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, which is an incredibly high stress environment with serious physical stress(the same 80 pounds of gear and 100 degree heat, but add in jet exhaust and the fumes from it), and women were perfectly capable of handling the environment, and in fact excelled. In fact, women in general seem to handle the stress better than men.

    This still does not address your whole point on women in combat, but I thought it was worth adding.
    "Few serious armies use women in combat roles. Israel, which drafts most of its young women and uses them in all kinds of military work, has learned from experience to take them out of combat zones. Tests show that few women have the upper-body strength required for combat tasks. Keeping combat forces all male would not be discriminatory, as were earlier racial segregation schemes in the military, because men and women are different both physically and psychologically," said the Feb. 5, 1990, National Review.
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Except a member of the IDF claims this is not accurate.
    This too, is anecdotal.

    If Tashah wants to debunk the claim, she can, but what she has done so far, does not debunk it for me. Let Tashah cite the specific policy and provide some counter evidence.

    The link of the OP is about the British armed forces, however we have drifted to discussing the IDF as well.

    From the British side of things . . .

    There are few roles in the military which remain off-limits to female personnel. They are engaged in highly dangerous tasks such as flying attack helicopters, driving in military convoys and are often part of foot patrols.

    But they are still forbidden from serving in what is known as "close combat". That is fighting with units - mainly in the infantry - whose key role is to seek out, engage with and kill enemy forces.
    Is what Tashah was describing an IDF parallel ? Foot Patrols, but not Close Combat ?

    More input from Tashah will be required.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    1. Women do not have the upper body strength equivalant to that of a man. They physically do not have the strength to effectively carry and then efficiently deploy a weapon in combat such as the Squad Automatic Weapon, AT-4, or any type of additional combat arms outside of their primary weapon. Of course there is exceptions, and I am sure some women are stronger than most of the Marines I served with, but I am speaking in general terms. When I was in Iraq I was carrying on average of 80-90 lbs of gear in 100+ degree heat, sometimes for hours. I am not looking for 'wow' or for people to think I am tough, I am merely highlighting the very realistic circumstances that need to be considered. This is the probably the pill hardest for women to swallow when discussing the debate due to the nature of it basically calling them physically inferior to men.
    Do you have any reason to suggest that "in general terms" women are incapable of carrying a 14 pound weapon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    2. Former head of the Army, General Sir Mike Jackson, told The Politics Show he believed any change could lead to "concerns that operational effectiveness, particularly in the infantry, could be and probably would be, jeopardised".

    History has shown that the presence of women in combat had very adverse of effect of men in combat.
    History has denied women the ability to be present in combat role so history has shown nothing in this regard.
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