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Thread: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

  1. #111
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    So, let me see here. You don't want to study the current situations with women who are in combat, because it is the wrong type of combat and might not prove the point you want to prove. Why are you reacting so emotionally to something that should be analytical. You post a link to a way out of date study as justification for your position, I call for a new study with modern data, and you all of a sudden don't want to use actual, honest to god data, you just know you are right

    It's not a matter of me 'wanting' to study the data available in combat, I just don't feel the data is sufficient to support a claim that women do not have adverse effects in combat when it was studied on a much broader level earlier. But according to you so much has changed in regards to warfare in the last 60 years that the data from that study is useless.

    I am not reacting emotionally at all. It is frustrating however when I have to keep reiterating the same point over and over that you are seemingly failing to grasp, or are just ignoring. There is a huge difference between women serving as gunner in a convoy, or as a pilot etc.. than patrolling the streets as a designated infantryman.

    As I stated before, that link merely highlighted some of the points I was making and articulated them in a different manner than I am. It was not the cornerstone of my argument, it was just a supporting piece. Read earlier posts please.

    I don't 'know I am right about anything. I just don't see how a study of isolated incidents of women in a different type of combat is adequate enough to make such a broad change when there is a study that proved women in combat to be risky to the mission and puts the men involved at greater risk.

    Despite your dismissiveness of women who have fought and died in service to our country, they do an incredible job, in combat. There is no shortage of data that can be gained from this, and a logical decision made about the future of women in combat.
    You are the one now using an emotional appeal. Show me data that states they all did an incredible job. Don't make the argument that everyone who has died for their country, male of female, in combat did an incredible job. I am not taking away from the memory of them or the sacrifice they put forth, but to say they all did an incredible job is false.

    I suppose we could measure this by citations and awards given to females? Granted this would not be a completely reliable study, but it would give facts over your opinion that they all do an incredible job 'in combat.'

    Once again I will point out your definition of combat is far different than one an infantryman would give. All combat is not equal, and although I know women have endured some horrendous circumstances in Iraq and Afghanistan, they have not been exposed to it day in and day out on the 'front-line' as the infantry have.

    All the arguments seen so far all sound very much like why "don't ask, don't tell" was not going to work, and why blacks could never serve in integrated units, and so on. This raises questions for me, and makes me seriously want to have some good, modern data to make a decision off of, which is hopefully what the British are using to make their decision
    To say that this argument is similar to one of racial integration is illogical. There was no study or data that I am aware of that showed blacks jeopardized missions or were at any physical disadvantage when it came to combat.
    "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -Jefferson

  2. #112
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Well, at least we made it to post # 101 before we got to the "women just are not good enough" argument that you had to know was behind all this.
    Women 'not being good enough' is in no way what I am saying. You don't have to believe me when I say that I am a strong advocate for women's equality, but it is true. There is no sexism behind what I am saying. If anything I am saying that it is the men who are having the trouble adapting and not being able to deal with women in combat. It is not the women's fault at all, that is unfortunately just how it is. My point is that I don't think lives should have to be lost so women feel equality in this aspect.

    You saying that I am representing the point of view that women are not good enough is a strawman argument and shows your own defensiveness and I suspect insecurities concerning the issue.
    "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -Jefferson

  3. #113
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Let me suggest you go back and read the whole of my post. It's not long, it should be pretty simple. I even used small words. Here, let me quote myself so you cannot miss the important part I want you to see:



    So, I talk about one small part of a post, specifically stating that I don't know enough to comment on the rest, and what do you do but complain that I do not comment on another part, that I already said I don't know enough about. And the best part of all is you did not actually comment on what I said that you felt the need to quote.
    You didn't do him any favors, you just don't know any big words.
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Alright Polynikes let us make this simpler.

    1) What evidence do you have that putting women in front line infantry units would lower military effectiveness? Since you chose not to defend the link you posted, the 48 study is not valid.

    2) What duties do you think make infantry duties more of an issue than armor or artillery? The combat load is irrelevant, as objective physical standards would ensure that soldiers have enough strength to carry out their.

    3) Be more specific about what roles you are worried about women having. The sniper role is considered a front line infantry position, yet Russian women during WW2 excelled in such a role. Clearly, not all infantry jobs have the same requirements.

    4) How exactly do you suggest studying the effects unless you test them?

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    The sniper role is considered a front line infantry position,
    Considered By Whom ?

  6. #116
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Considered By Whom ?
    Snipers always fight dismounted, making them infantry. They need direct-line of sight to perform their duties, making them front line.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Snipers always fight dismounted, making them infantry. They need direct-line of sight to perform their duties, making them front line.
    Ahh, so considered by you, from layman's definitions.

    Well snipers are not infantry, they are special forces. Infantry is not about whether you fight on foot or not, as artillery personnel are on foot, so are mechanics in the Motor Pool and MP's.

    You are applying an inaccurate usage of the term infantry to the context of this discussion. I hope this clears up your error.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Ahh, so considered by you, from layman's definitions.
    This is a political debate forum, are you expecting paid experts? There are plenty of military folks in this thread, and I am sure they will point out any errors I make.

    Well snipers are not infantry, they are special forces.
    Snipers are integrated into infantry formations, typically at the platoon or company level. Some snipers are part of special forces, but most are part of normal infantry formations.

    Infantry is not about whether you fight on foot or not, as artillery personnel are on foot, so are mechanics in the Motor Pool and MP's.
    Artillery is almost all self propelled or organic nowadays, but that is why I mentioned the line of site requirement as well. Mechanics and MP are not front-line combat personnel.

    You are applying an inaccurate usage of the term infantry to the context of this discussion. I hope this clears up your error.
    No, you are trying to nitpick my terminology and failing at it.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Some snipers are part of special forces
    All are. They are not infantrymen, they recieve different training than infantrymen.

    The context of this discussion, is unit assignments, in the British armed Forces. The fact is, all "snipers" in the British Armed Forces are special forces, whether detatched to an Infantry platoon or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    No, you are trying to nitpick my terminology and failing at it.
    Succeeding rather handily in fact.

  10. #120
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    I dont think its so much about "politcal correctness" as it is about being desperate for more recruits. I remember reading a year or so back that they,re relaxing the weight limit for new recruits quite dramatically.
    I think it is both.
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