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Thread: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

  1. #101
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    Lol. I think a lot of males here are upset because they would lose the exclusivity to one of their domains. It also seems to me that what the outdated study is grounded upon is the notion that men will place gender-bias ahead of battlefield necessity. You guys better toughen up.

    Lugging around a gun is so difficult? Jeeze Louise. I have an M-4 and a pup-gun and neither is as heavy as my purse. There are certainly military roles which are more attuned to male participation. However, the converse is also true. There are certainly military roles in which females excel. The trick is in finding the proper balance.

    Yea, that is all I lugged around in Iraq. I went out naked with just my M-4. They were like 'Hey, shouldn't you have on the 4 different armor plates, 120 rounds of ammunition, 14 M203 grenades, 2 fragmentation grenades, helmet, gloves, kneepad, radio, that we provided?'

    I responded, "who needs 95lbs of gear?, I am quicker when I'm naked."

    Oh, and we only went on 20 minute patrols....rrriiigght. Go carry your M-4 for 3 hours, I bet it gets heavier than you think.
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    If they wish to fight, let them fight.
    You volunteering?

    We create a PMS Brigade. Talk about a formidable weapon.
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    Once again it is important that you understand the difference of an IED hitting your convoy, the convoy stopping and everyone taking up security positions until those in the hit vehicle are evacuated to another vehicle or airlifted out and then the convoy proceeding on to what I am speaking of as front-line infantry combat patrols.

    Granted some of those convoys may come under further small arms fire, but I bet there is maybe a handful of instances where the female soldiers dismounted and conducted maneuvers to neutralize the small arms fire.

    Sitting behind a sheet of armor in a humvee shooting a .50 cal is not the same doing a 2 hour patrol, taking contract and then being in a running gunfight for the next 4 hours.

    This distinction is very important.

    Therefore there has not been any accurate information (Or VERY little that can not be applied to such a broad issue) that could be used to judge how females would perform in front-line combat situations. Once again, infantry style combat is only comparable to infantry style combat. Serving in artillery is NOWHERE near the same experience as serving in the infantry.

    .
    So, let me see here. You don't want to study the current situations with women who are in combat, because it is the wrong type of combat and might not prove the point you want to prove. Why are you reacting so emotionally to something that should be analytical. You post a link to a way out of date study as justification for your position, I call for a new study with modern data, and you all of a sudden don't want to use actual, honest to god data, you just know you are right.

    Despite your dismissiveness of women who have fought and died in service to our country, they do an incredible job, in combat. There is no shortage of data that can be gained from this, and a logical decision made about the future of women in combat.

    All the arguments seen so far all sound very much like why "don't ask, don't tell" was not going to work, and why blacks could never serve in integrated units, and so on. This raises questions for me, and makes me seriously want to have some good, modern data to make a decision off of, which is hopefully what the British are using to make their decision.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    Yea, that is all I lugged around in Iraq. I went out naked with just my M-4. They were like 'Hey, shouldn't you have on the 4 different armor plates, 120 rounds of ammunition, 14 M203 grenades, 2 fragmentation grenades, helmet, gloves, kneepad, radio, that we provided?'

    I responded, "who needs 95lbs of gear?, I am quicker when I'm naked."

    Oh, and we only went on 20 minute patrols....rrriiigght. Go carry your M-4 for 3 hours, I bet it gets heavier than you think.
    Well, at least we made it to post # 101 before we got to the "women just are not good enough" argument that you had to know was behind all this.

  5. #105
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    I think for clarity sake, we need to seperate a few things out here.

    Like GySgt mentions, thanks to there being no front line in Iraq, women have had to perform in combat situations. This is an unaviodable truth about the kind of war we are fighting.
    So from what I can gather thus far, is that most are in agreement, that females in the military, particularly in the Marines and Army, should receive some kind of infantry training, even if it is basic in its nature and scope. Something beyond what they were taught in boot camp, but somewhat short of being a grunt as a primary specialty, after all, we still need to train these people in their roles as support be it logistical, administrative, airwing, etc... The IDF does this, and the Marines do this as well. If there is somebody here who has a problem with females even hoisting a rifle, I would strongly disagree with them. You can get hit anywhere, and you need some training to fall back on be you male or female.

    The question is, should we allow women to specialize as infantrymen?
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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post

    The question is, should we allow women to specialize as infantrymen?
    I think now is a just fine time to look into it. I am not going to give an absolute yes or no answer, but I suspect it might be time to make the change. The arguments against it seem weak.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    I assumed you would be able figure out that I was referring to the U.K./U.S. since we were discussing the role of women serving those two countries, but clearly you were wrong.

    Let clarify my statement just for you. Although rape and plunder were once condoned as typical behavior for men at war, in certain countries times have changed. The U.K. armed forces now will actively punish soldiers who loot conquered nations or sexually assault women. This is a clear indication that the social behavior of men at war has changed, mirroring general changes in society at large.
    Clearly you are wrong, again, because as soon as you make your bold sweeping claim, you again change to "men at war", and that includes Saddam's Republican Guard and Sudan's Janjaweed. The behavior of U.K. and U.S. soldiers might have changed, but your sweeping generalizations are simply factually inaccurate, since other nations also have war fighters.
    Last edited by Voidwar; 05-25-09 at 02:46 PM.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Clearly you are wrong, again, because as soon as you make your bold sweeping claim, you again change to "men at war", and that includes Saddam's Republican Guard and Sudan's Janjaweed. The behavior of U.K. and U.S. soldiers might have changed, but your sweeping generalizations are simply factually inaccurate, since other nations also have war fighters.
    Are you just going to be deliberately obtuse and continue to intentionally misunderstand everything I say?

    If actually cared about correcting sweeping generalizations, you would have argued against Polynikes original sweeping generalization that men haven't changed in war at all.

    Its true the many men still go around raping and plundering during war, but that has nothing to do with the countries we are discussing here. Stop throwing up smokescreens and post an actual argument.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Its true the many men still go around raping and plundering during war, but that has nothing to do with the countries we are discussing here. Stop throwing up smokescreens and post an actual argument.
    It has everything to do with other countries, because they are in the War game too. This is a fact, and I feel no obligation to educate you about it further.

    Your assertion was false and I proved it, time to move on.

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    Re: U.K. Considers Lifting Combat Ban for Female Troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Not a good move in my opinion. Seems like a further move to total war ideals. By keeping women from such roles, to me seems like a small respite from a total war mentality. Your saying in effect one section of the community has some sort of protection from the all encompassing needs of the military, whether or not having women in combat roles actually is good for military efficiency. It seems to me like also like a further blurring of distinctions for the sake of politically correct egalitarianism, often with vague promises that "it'll turn out alright" or "change must come".

    One notes that it was such societies as the USSR and Communist China as well as Israel, societies of revolution and/or total war footings that are most known for the liberal use of women as soldiers.
    I dont think its so much about "politcal correctness" as it is about being desperate for more recruits. I remember reading a year or so back that they,re relaxing the weight limit for new recruits quite dramatically.

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