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Thread: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

  1. #11
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    Re: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    It doesn't matter what the reason is. What we have is what we have, so it's cheaper to feed and clothe them than it is to off them.
    What is ignored in those calculations is the fact that the death penalty has a significant deterrent effect.

    Even if we agree that executions "cost" more than life without parole, is that extra $1m saved worth the loss of 3-18 lives?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    What is ignored in those calculations is the fact that the death penalty has a significant deterrent effect.

    Even if we agree that executions "cost" more than life without parole, is that extra $1m saved worth the loss of 3-18 lives?
    From that article:

    There is also a classic economics question lurking in the background, Professor Wolfers said. “Capital punishment is very expensive,” he said, “so if you choose to spend money on capital punishment you are choosing not to spend it somewhere else, like policing.”

    A single capital litigation can cost more than $1 million. It is at least possible that devoting that money to crime prevention would prevent more murders than whatever number, if any, an execution would deter.

    ....

    The available data is nevertheless thin, mostly because there are so few executions.

    In 2003, for instance, there were more than 16,000 homicides but only 153 death sentences and 65 executions.

    “It seems unlikely,” Professor Donohue and Professor Wolfers concluded in their Stanford article, “that any study based only on recent U.S. data can find a reliable link between homicide and execution rates.”

    The two professors offered one particularly compelling comparison. Canada has executed no one since 1962. Yet the murder rates in the United States and Canada have moved in close parallel since then, including before, during and after the four-year death penalty moratorium in the United States in the 1970s.

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    Re: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    From that article:
    Not sure what you think that proves.

    There were twelve independent studies conducted by people who were not exactly death penalty advocates and they unanimously found a significant deterrent effect. I don't see how one article written by pissed off law profs means anything, especially with such a tenuous argument.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Not sure what you think that proves.

    There were twelve independent studies conducted by people who were not exactly death penalty advocates and they unanimously found a significant deterrent effect. I don't see how one article written by pissed off law profs means anything, especially with such a tenuous argument.
    It means that saying the death penalty may deter homicides is fallacious and irrelevant because:

    1. There is over 45 years evidence to the contrary from our northern neighbors.

    2. Money that can be saved from removing capital punishment can be used for 'policing' and stop more homicides that may or may not have been deterred by the application of capital punishment.

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    Re: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    It means that saying the death penalty may deter homicides is fallacious and irrelevant because:

    1. There is over 45 years evidence to the contrary from our northern neighbors.
    This relies on several enormous assumptions

    a) that homicide trends in Canada are directly tied to homicide trends here
    b) that if not for the death penalty, the trends would remain exactly the same
    c) that the statistical analysis of these two angry profs is unassailable despite being undisclosed

    I just think it's laughable to use Canadian homicide trends to try to prove something about the success of US policing tactics.

    2. Money that can be saved from removing capital punishment can be used for 'policing' and stop more homicides that may or may not have been deterred by the application of capital punishment.
    Again, this relies on additional unsupported assumptions.

    As the article notes, there are around 65 executions per year. Even if we take the "$1m savings" number at face value, do you really think that $65m is going to have even the most infinitesimal impact on homicide rates across the country? That will just about pay for some new radios and community awareness training for the cops in some podunk town.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This relies on several enormous assumptions

    a) that homicide trends in Canada are directly tied to homicide trends here
    b) that if not for the death penalty, the trends would remain exactly the same
    c) that the statistical analysis of these two angry profs is unassailable despite being undisclosed

    I just think it's laughable to use Canadian homicide trends to try to prove something about the success of US policing tactics.



    Again, this relies on additional unsupported assumptions.

    As the article notes, there are around 65 executions per year. Even if we take the "$1m savings" number at face value, do you really think that $65m is going to have even the most infinitesimal impact on homicide rates across the country? That will just about pay for some new radios and community awareness training for the cops in some podunk town.
    The idea is the death penalty deters homicides, which is what you asserted.

    Do we see the death penalty deterring people from killing each other? No.

    Each one of those studies followed only two variables.

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    Re: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    The idea is the death penalty deters homicides, which is what you asserted.

    Do we see the death penalty deterring people from killing each other? No.

    Each one of those studies followed only two variables.
    You're kidding me, right? Because people still kill each other, the death penalty doesn't work?

    Further, I didn't assert **** - a dozen independent statistical analyses asserted this. Where did you get the idea that these studies followed only two variables? Did you read the article?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You're kidding me, right? Because people still kill each other, the death penalty doesn't work?
    Where did I say that? I said we don't physically see it deterring homicides.
    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Further, I didn't assert **** - a dozen independent statistical analyses asserted this. Where did you get the idea that these studies followed only two variables? Did you read the article?
    You asserted it here, by which I mean you brought it up here.

    That article said each variable they looked at, # of executions by location and homicide rates over time in the same location.

    What it doesn't tell you is that homicide rates in non-death penalty states have remained consistently lower than in death penalty states, with the gap growing in difference over the past two decades.

    I find it laughable you think studies by economists on false premises have a proper role in political and criminal science.

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    Re: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Where did I say that? I said we don't physically see it deterring homicides.
    What are you basing this conclusion on? The fact that people still kill each other?

    How would you expect to "physically see" it deterring homicides?

    That article said each variable they looked at, # of executions by location and homicide rates over time in the same location.
    No, that's not it.

    The studies, performed by economists in the past decade, compare the number of executions in different jurisdictions with homicide rates over time — while trying to eliminate the effects of crime rates, conviction rates and other factors — and say that murder rates tend to fall as executions rise. One influential study looked at 3,054 counties over two decades.
    It's not just plotting an x and y chart - there's a bit more to it than that. Read a few of the actual studies.

    What it doesn't tell you is that homicide rates in non-death penalty states have remained consistently lower than in death penalty states, with the gap growing in difference over the past two decades.
    You say that as if it means something.

    I find it laughable you think studies by economists on false premises have a proper role in political and criminal science.
    I'm just amazed that you don't seem to understand why the things you keep bringing up are non-responsive to the studies I referenced.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Four Charged in Alleged Synagogue Bomb Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    It doesn't matter what the reason is. What we have is what we have, so it's cheaper to feed and clothe them than it is to off them.
    See, there is your problem, feeding and clothing them. Lock them up securely, then just ignore them, and they'll go away.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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