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Thread: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    I think the parent's and the child's choice is wrong, but NOT acting on something is not the same as ACTING to bring something about.

    Don't we value personal freedom to determine the course of our lives? If one doesn't want to receive extraordinary medical treatment--what right does any legal body have in butting in and compelling a person to receive extraordinary care? The same people who will scream at the top of their lungs that a terminally ill person should be able to determine how and when he dies seem to be the ones raising holy hell that these people can't decide NOT to live. What IS that if not hypocrisy?

    Comparisons have been made to not feeding a kid--nourishment is not extraordinary medical treatment. Being hooked up to poisonous chemicals in order kill off mutant cells--that is extraordinary.

    Mind you--I totally disagree with the parents and the boy, but I side with their freedom to be wrong.
    Hell you can go to jail if you have a dog chained up in your yard that obviously needs medical treatment. If your neighbors report that you've got a neglected horse on your property in dire need of a vet's treatment you can be fined and/or jailed for abusing the animal.

    This is a child. A deluded child. His mother is also deluded. Due to their combined delusions the child is being neglected and abused. It is a life and death situation the courts should most definitely intervene even if it means throwing mom in jail for a bit and strapping the boy down for treatment. Just like the courts would lock you up for surveillance and treatment if you were deluded into believing you could fly and you were caught flapping your arms while perched on a building ledge. In life and death situations we have an obligation to aid the incompetent and see them through a time of crisis.
    Last edited by talloulou; 05-20-09 at 09:54 PM.

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Hell you can go to jail if you have a dog chained up in your yard that obviously needs medical treatment.
    You can put your dog down, too. Look--a human being is not a dog. You do not HAVE to give your dog chemo if he's sick. It is not a valid comparison. If the kid wanted the treatment and his parents said no, it would be different, but that isn't the circumstances here. Leave them alone. As yet, it is still a free country, though with the messed up thinking of people, I fear it won't be for long. We'll run into tyranny with our arms wide begging for it it seems, for all the lazy thinkers.

    If your neighbors report that you've got a neglected horse on your property in dire need of a vet's treatment you can be fined and/or jailed for abusing the animal.
    Human beings--free-will--self-determinism. Not an animal....

    This is a child. A deluded child. His mother is also deluded. Due to their combined delusions the child is being neglected and abused. It is a life and death situation the courts should most definitely intervene even if it means throwing mom in jail for a bit and strapping the boy down for treatment. Just like the courts would lock you up for surveillance and treatment if you were deluded into believing you could fly and you were caught flapping your arms while perched on a building ledge. In life and death situations we have an obligation to aid the incompetent and see them through a time of crisis.
    I don't think wanting to be in charge of one's own medical decisions is proof of incompetence.

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    It would be hypocrisy if the kid was 18 and compitent rather than 13. See above..
    So you're FOR parental notification laws?

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    I don't think wanting to be in charge of one's own medical decisions is proof of incompetence.
    No. But refusing to believe your tumor is growing when all drs. involved say it is - is. Thinking you have magic water - is. Living in denial about what the many drs. are telling you - is. Hell, choosing a prognosis that makes it almost inevitable your kid won't live 5 years when there's an alternative that gives a 90+% survival rate -is. Refusing to acknowledge that this is what you're doing, when you are in fact doing it - is.

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    I think this is proving to be an issue much like abortion. We are having so much difficulty in reaching each other on the opposite side since we frame the debate so much differently in our thinking. I do somehow find it interesting that Felicity and I ended up on the same side in this debate, whereas we are on the opposite side in the abortion debate. Why that is interesting to me is that I frame the debate in my head in almost exactly the same way.
    Last edited by Redress; 05-20-09 at 10:08 PM. Reason: clarity

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    So you're FOR parental notification laws?
    I have no opinion on them. I would be inclined to say yes though.

    I find it just astounding that a rabid pro-lifer would be against a woman being able to choose to abort a 4 week old embryo, but believe that parents should be able to choose to deny their child life saving medical treatments for a highly treatable form of cancer and thus ensure their child enduring a long and agonizing death.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    The issue for me is that the kid does not believe his tumor is growing. Does not believe he faces death as a consequence.

    It's not as if he's grasped the scope of the situation and made an informed choice.

    He's operating in a deluded state - which is quite different.

    Looking at all the information before you and making a stupid choice is willful ignorance.

    Being completely incapable of seeing the information in front of you and instead seeing something outside of reality is incompetence caused by delusions.

    For me, it makes all the difference in the world.

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    No. But refusing to believe your tumor is growing when all drs. involved say it is - is. Thinking you have magic water - is. Living in denial about what the many drs. are telling you - is. Hell, choosing a prognosis that makes it almost inevitable your kid won't live 5 years when there's an alternative that gives a 90+% survival rate -is. Refusing to acknowledge that this is what you're doing, when you are in fact doing it - is.
    Is there evidence that they don't know the risks? Is there evidence that they are denying he's sick? They are CHOOSING a course of inaction--they are not choosing a prognosis. They are free to do so--and if they are not free, then this isn't the United States. Patrick Henry comes to mind...

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    I'm as tenacious as anyone for the necessity of strong family autonomy and authority but even I can recognise this is a time for the state to intervene because the child's life seems endanger for little reason and it isn't as if it need do anything but enforce chemo.

    Personally I believe a child is a ward; of the family and occasionally the state. It is not for the child to decide what is right for it in these circumstances and if it is completely against their welfare and not too destructive of familial autonomy and authority then there is the occasional need for the state to intervene; of course exercising the greatest cautious, restraint and accountability.

    I do object to some of the more gung-ho interventionist attitudes I perceive here though, the state's intervention must only be as a last resort, it must be as little as is possible to accomplish what is necessary and must be accountable.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 05-20-09 at 10:27 PM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
    Is there evidence that they don't know the risks? Is there evidence that they are denying he's sick? They are CHOOSING a course of inaction--they are not choosing a prognosis. They are free to do so--and if they are not free, then this isn't the United States. Patrick Henry comes to mind...
    Yes there is evidence. Since stopping treatment the child's tumor has grown. Despite having had this proven to the mother - she denies it.

    When the kid was interviewed separate from the mother the court decided the kid did not understand he was in a life or death situation. The child does not believe he is as sick as his drs. say he is. The family is in absolute deluded denial.

    Parents are absolutely not free to abuse their children. Allowing a child to die when said child has an excellent opportunity to be healed with an excellent outcome and high quality of life is abuse.

    This child is not their own personal Jesus. They don't get to sacrifice him to the Gods.

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