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Thread: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is not the same thing. This is rejecting a course of medical treatment because you feel there is a better way.
    In either case, the parents are denying the child something (chemo or food) which is necessary for that child to not die.

    The only difference is intent. Which is fine. Prosecute parents who starve their kids to death with voluntary manslaughter or murder, and charge these nuts with involuntary manslaughter. In either case, they are criminally responsible for the death of their child.
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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Being intelligent is not a legal requirement to make medical decisions.
    No it's not. However in these types of cases whether or not the person understands the ramifications of their decision is key whether the person is a kid or a 65 year old.

    Stating, "I know my cancer is growing. I know the drs. put my survival rate at such and such percent without treatment but I still have more faith in doing it my way come what may," does not require intelligence.

    Looking at x-rays and listening to drs. tell you your cancer is in fact growing and then going to interviews where you insist it is not is - delusional regardless of intelligence. Folks with high IQ's can be delusional.

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Being intelligent is not a legal requirement to make medical decisions.
    Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with mental competence. I'd trust Forrest Gump to make his own medical decisions before I'd trust Bobby Fischer to do the same.
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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    In either case, the parents are denying the child something (chemo or food) which is necessary for that child to not die.
    That is a similarity, it does not mean the two situations are the same, only that they share an attribute. Your example does not accurately describe the situation.

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is not the same thing. This is rejecting a course of medical treatment because you feel there is a better way. The fact that the lady is clearly stupid in no way changes my belief that the government should not involve itself in medical decisions.
    We should also not hesitate to note that authoritarian governance can just as effectively be manifested through parental decisions, considering the limited legal rights of minors and the rather expansive legal rights of parents in regards to them. Political scientist Robert Dahl has defined a spectrum of "influence terms" that range from the relatively benevolent to the openly malevolent. They include rational persuasion, manipulative persuasion, inducement, power, coercion, and physical force.

    In my opinion, judging by the hierarchical strictures of families deeply immersed in Roman Catholicism, young Hauser has probably been subjected to manipulative persuasion by his parents, and may also be subjected to inducement and power were he to refuse. So the authoritarianism is not only able to come from the government. As I said, my advocacy is for him to have the opportunity to make a rational decision (which I believe he is capable of doing), once he has been sufficiently informed of all the consequences and implications of the treatment. Such a situation may necessitate his capture or detainment.

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    No it's not. However in these types of cases whether or not the person understands the ramifications of their decision is key whether the person is a kid or a 65 year old.

    Stating, "I know my cancer is growing. I know the drs. put my survival rate at such and such percent without treatment but I still have more faith in doing it my way come what may," does not require intelligence.

    Looking at x-rays and listening to drs. tell you your cancer is in fact growing and then going to interviews where you insist it is not is - delusional regardless of intelligence. Folks with high IQ's can be delusional.
    I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. The woman in question has strong but stupid beliefs. I think we have to respect her right to be stupid. I also do not think the government should be getting involved in medical treatment disputes.

    The problem with rights and personal liberties is that far too often, people use them to do bad things. I do not consider this an acceptable argument against having those rights and liberties though.

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That is a similarity, it does not mean the two situations are the same, only that they share an attribute. Your example does not accurately describe the situation.
    A more accurate scenario would be an old man declines treatment for his cancer. He goes to court with his family and explains to the court if his time has come it has come. He knows he has cancer. He knows and understands his statistical outcome with different choices. He doesn't care and willingly accepts that he may die by refusing treatment. The court allows him to make his decision, declares him competent to do so.

    vs.

    An old man goes to court with his family. He has refused treatment for his cancer. He doesn't believe he has cancer. He especially doesn't believe it's as big as those dang x-rays are making it out to be. He doesn't believe that anything the drs are saying is true. He thinks they're all full of b.s. He doesn't believe he needs treatment. And he doesn't believe he's putting himself at risk by refusing treatment. Plus he has really good water delivered to his house which like cures all his ailments. Likely the courts in this case will appoint someone else in charge of making this guy's decisions because he's incompetent- delusional.
    Last edited by talloulou; 05-20-09 at 08:46 PM.

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    I'll be honest, I'm still trying to fully form my position on this and am unsure which side I'm coming in on.

    For those going on about the "crazy religious" people, out of curiosity (as part of it makes me wonder how much of this is hatred for religions and part how much is hatred for christians) I'd ask this...

    If this person was a(n)...

    athiest that was, to use a politically incorrect but more to the point term, a Hippy who didn't trust "the man" and the corporations and because of that wanted to use holistic healing.

    American Indian family wanting to use traditional means of medicine due to their cultural traditions.

    Wiccan who wanted holistic healing due to their religious beleifs.

    Would all those be "Stupid ****s" and "lunatics" that were "brainwashing" their kid?

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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    If this person was a(n)...

    athiest that was, to use a politically incorrect but more to the point term, a Hippy who didn't trust "the man" and the corporations and because of that wanted to use holistic healing.
    Yes. The court should order treatment, and prosecute the parents for manslaughter if they defy the order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    American Indian family wanting to use traditional means of medicine due to their cultural traditions.

    Yes. The court should order treatment, and prosecute the parents for manslaughter if they defy the order (unless they live on a reservation outside of the state's jurisdiction).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    Wiccan who wanted holistic healing due to their religious beleifs.
    Yes. The court should order treatment, and prosecute the parents for manslaughter if they defy the order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin
    Would all those be "Stupid ****s" and "lunatics" that were "brainwashing" their kid?
    Yes, they would all be stupid ****s and lunatics who were brainwashing their kid. Pseudoscience is pseudoscience, no matter what the reason for believing in it is.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 05-20-09 at 08:54 PM.
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    Re: Arrest ordered for mom of boy, 13, resisting chemo

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I understand what you are saying, I just disagree. The woman in question has strong but stupid beliefs. I think we have to respect her right to be stupid. I also do not think the government should be getting involved in medical treatment disputes.

    The problem with rights and personal liberties is that far too often, people use them to do bad things. I do not consider this an acceptable argument against having those rights and liberties though.
    When someone dies because of your stubborn stupidity, it's called manslaughter. This form of cancer is highly treatable, with a very high success rate. The boy deserves his life, regardless of the mother's ignorance. How can someone get all worked up over a fertilized egg when here is a young boy who will lose his life needlessley.

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