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Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

Orion

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With some changes...

Obama revives Guantanamo Bay tribunals

Article said:
For now, the military trials will remain on hold, as they have been since the beginning of his administration, while Obama makes the necessary legal changes. The revised system is expected to try fewer than 20 of the 241 detainees now being held at Guantanamo.

The changes include:

* Restrictions on hearsay evidence that can be used in court against the detainees.
* A ban on all evidence obtained through cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. This would include statements given by detainees who were subjected to waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning.
* Giving detainees greater leeway in choosing their own military counsel.
* Protecting detainees who refuse to testify from legal sanctions or other court prejudices.


The restrictions on evidence almost certainly will result in only a fraction of detainees going to trial. The rest of the detainees would either be released, transferred to other nations or tried by civilian prosecutors in U.S. federal courts, an official said.

I like how the wording doesn't address whether or not waterboarding was torture, but it bypasses the controversy entirely by simply omitting the evidence. If there was probable cause to detain them in the first place, then that should be provable anyway.
 
With some changes...

Obama revives Guantanamo Bay tribunals



I like how the wording doesn't address whether or not waterboarding was torture, but it bypasses the controversy entirely by simply omitting the evidence. If there was probable cause to detain them in the first place, then that should be provable anyway.

Why would you reference probable cause, as if it were applicable to enemy combatants?
 
The ones going on trial have enough evidence. A good number of them are bigwigs.
These are not oh we caught this guy in 2009 and don't know much about him past rank in the enemy structure.

Though their may be 1 or 2 who the trial is simply to absolve for release.


Obama has no place to put anyone. He has no plan. He has no money.
He signed a fool document to placate the extreme base of the Democrat party before he had a clue about a catchy line not necessarily being sound policy.

Interesting that the delays caused by the left in opposing Bush trying to put these people on trial may now be causing their mascot to hastily conduct trials to fulfill a campaign promise to close a secure un-escaped from prison for the worst the enemy has to offer.
"Hurry we need to hang them before the place is closed."
..and they called it justice. ;)


Closing Gitmo is dumb and most know it. IE-
Just 36% now agree with the president’s decision to close the prison camp for suspected terrorists at the Guantanamo Naval Base in Cuba. Forty-six percent (46%) oppose closing the prison camp, and 18% are undecided.

This marks an eight-point drop in support for Obama’s decision since he announced it in late January when voters were almost evenly divided on the issue. Last November, only 32% thought the prison should be closed.
Rasmussen Reports: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere
 
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Why would you reference probable cause, as if it were applicable to enemy combatants?

Some of the detainees were captured in the field of battle but you know just as well as I do that other detainees were captured by the CIA in other locations. The use of the term enemy combattant was stretched to absurd levels by the Bush administration. Obama is going to cut through the controversy and put them on trial based on the immediate evidence leading to their detainment.

It's a sound diplomatic move and it's also fair to those being detained indefinitely.
 
Some of the detainees were captured in the field of battle but you know just as well as I do that other detainees were captured by the CIA in other locations. The use of the term enemy combattant was stretched to absurd levels by the Bush administration. Obama is going to cut through the controversy and put them on trial based on the immediate evidence leading to their detainment.

It's a sound diplomatic move and it's also fair to those being detained indefinitely.

Just curious, but how was "the term 'enemy combatant' stretched to absurd levels"?
 
Just curious, but how was "the term 'enemy combatant' stretched to absurd levels"?
I thought they weren't going to be detained indefinitely. I guess when Obama does it, it's different.
 
I thought they weren't going to be detained indefinitely. I guess when Obama does it, it's different.

How is resuming the trials holding them indefinately? :shock:

Even Bushco released hundreds of these "enemy combatants" when it was found out they were just goat-herders.

The fact that there was never even a declared war (except on an adverb) means that this should have been a police action all along. We need to either find them guilty of something or let them go.

I also find it funny that conservatives are trying to rag on Obama for trying to fix this mess.

Do you also blame the plumber for having to dig out the toys your kids tried to flush down the toilet?
 
No one has said anything about Obama using the Bush method after he said he wouldn't. IMO, Military Tribunals was the only way to put the terrorists on trial.
 
The article buys the Obama spin that all this stuff is whole-cloth new, that nothing like it was in effect until His Excellency demanded it. However:

`Sec. 948r. Compulsory self-incrimination prohibited; treatment of statements obtained by torture and other statements

`(a) In General- No person shall be required to testify against himself at a proceeding of a military commission under this chapter.

`(b) Exclusion of Statements Obtained by Torture- A statement obtained by use of torture shall not be admissible in a military commission under this chapter, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.

`(c) Statements Obtained Before Enactment of Detainee Treatment Act of 2005- A statement obtained before December 30, 2005 (the date of the enactment of the Defense Treatment Act of 2005) in which the degree of coercion is disputed may be admitted only if the military judge finds that--

`(1) the totality of the circumstances renders the statement reliable and possessing sufficient probative value; and

`(2) the interests of justice would best be served by admission of the statement into evidence.

`(d) Statements Obtained After Enactment of Detainee Treatment Act of 2005- A statement obtained on or after December 30, 2005 (the date of the enactment of the Defense Treatment Act of 2005) in which the degree of coercion is disputed may be admitted only if the military judge finds that--

`(1) the totality of the circumstances renders the statement reliable and possessing sufficient probative value;

`(2) the interests of justice would best be served by admission of the statement into evidence; and

`(3) the interrogation methods used to obtain the statement do not amount to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment prohibited by section 1003 of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005.

MCA 2006.

The Accused shall not be required to testify during trial. A Commission shall draw no adverse inference from an Accused's decision not to testify

DOD Military Commission Order 1 (March 21, 2002)


Under the Bush construct, the only restriction to choosing an attorney is that said attorney must pass a security clearance for the purposes of obtaining classified material. Is it a good idea to lift that restriction? Not that it's any way clear what Obama's "greater leeway" entails.

As for hearsay, the commissions were already quite free to toss out anything unreliable, which is the whole purpose of the rule against hearsay. And contrary to popular belief, there are many, many instances in which hearsay IS admitted in court, in general. (To say nothing of it being a uniquely American restriction, and certainly one not generally applicable to, say, world "war crime" tribunals.)
 
How is resuming the trials holding them indefinately? :shock:

Even Bushco released hundreds of these "enemy combatants" when it was found out they were just goat-herders.

The fact that there was never even a declared war (except on an adverb) means that this should have been a police action all along. We need to either find them guilty of something or let them go.

I also find it funny that conservatives are trying to rag on Obama for trying to fix this mess.

Do you also blame the plumber for having to dig out the toys your kids tried to flush down the toilet?
You mean Bush let some go??? From the media coverage you'd think everyone of those bastards was still rotting in hell down there. :roll:
 
How is resuming the trials holding them indefinately? :shock:

Even Bushco released hundreds of these "enemy combatants" when it was found out they were just goat-herders.

The fact that there was never even a declared war (except on an adverb) means that this should have been a police action all along. We need to either find them guilty of something or let them go.

I also find it funny that conservatives are trying to rag on Obama for trying to fix this mess.

Do you also blame the plumber for having to dig out the toys your kids tried to flush down the toilet?

Left blocked trials for Years. Obama made dismantling them a campaign slogan.

In 6 months will you (or the rest of the left since they will all pull your routine) remember what planet your on if it doesn't fit the rote?


Obama helped make the mess. Now he needs to hold trials in haste becasue he stupidly closed a prison to placate dips.


If Obama turns around and says Gitmo cannot be closed I have no doubt whatsoever that just about every lefty here will not only agree with him but deny they ever wanted the place shut down.
Just like joe1991(and most of the left in general) has done with the trials.
 
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If Obama turns around and says Gitmo cannot be closed I have no doubt whatsoever that just about every lefty here will not only agree with him but deny they ever wanted the place shut down.
.

Looking at the executive order announcing his intention to close gitmo and the events following that announcment I have come to the conclusion that his words have been consistent with most politician's campaign promisies.
I agree with what he is doing this time but at some point his liberal supports are going to catch on with the fact that Obama=Bush in more ways than not.
 
Looking at the executive order announcing his intention to close gitmo and the events following that announcment I have come to the conclusion that his words have been consistent with most politician's campaign promisies.
I agree with what he is doing this time but at some point his liberal supports are going to catch on with the fact that Obama=Bush in more ways than not.

That's because like Bush, Obama is now faced with information he didn't have when he was embracing partisan protest leading to the White House steps. I told people this last year and they denied that Obama would ever adopt policies that they have criticized for years. But what do we see in those who went out of their way to label Bush as a Nazi, a tyrant, and a murderer? Have civilians been killed in Afghanistan under Obama? Gitmo closed? Those infamous military tribunals Obama and Democrats criticized gone away? All of a sudden those that criticized Bush now find excuses to support Obama.

What a joke. Funny how the political party most faced towards reality is always the one that has a representative in the White House while the other seeks mere protest and schemes.
 
That's because like Bush, Obama is now faced with information he didn't have when he was embracing partisan protest leading to the White House steps. I told people this last year and they denied that Obama would ever adopt policies that they have criticized for years. But what do we see in those who went out of their way to label Bush as a Nazi, a tyrant, and a murderer? Have civilians been killed in Afghanistan under Obama? Gitmo closed? Those infamous military tribunals Obama and Democrats criticized gone away? All of a sudden those that criticized Bush now find excuses to support Obama.

What a joke. Funny how the political party most faced towards reality is always the one that has a representative in the White House while the other seeks mere protest and schemes.

I said the same thing during Obama's campaign. The campaign trail is always full of idealism but once the President elect enters office there will be forces greater than his ideology that will make him succumb to the status quo.

I do find there is an important difference between Bush and Obama though. Bush found new use for Gitmo, reinvented the term "enemy combatant", and used the tribunal system to his administration's advantage. This is the framework that Obama has inherited and, once on the inside, has found that it's not a simple matter of signing paper and making it go away. It is the legacy of almost a decade of policy making.

So while you can blame Obama for maintaining it you can't blame him for its invention. I do agree through that partisan hacks have a hard time looking at the big picture, and those who formerly threw stones are now on the receiving end. Both sides of the political spectrum are guilty of this. On the non-partisan side of things, it's just a failure of the imagination... people don't realize that what is said on the campaign trail is not bound by contract and the politicians don't have to fulfill one damn word they said.
 
I said the same thing during Obama's campaign. The campaign trail is always full of idealism but once the President elect enters office there will be forces greater than his ideology that will make him succumb to the status quo.

I do find there is an important difference between Bush and Obama though. Bush found new use for Gitmo, reinvented the term "enemy combatant", and used the tribunal system to his administration's advantage. This is the framework that Obama has inherited and, once on the inside, has found that it's not a simple matter of signing paper and making it go away. It is the legacy of almost a decade of policy making.

So while you can blame Obama for maintaining it you can't blame him for its invention. I do agree through that partisan hacks have a hard time looking at the big picture, and those who formerly threw stones are now on the receiving end. Both sides of the political spectrum are guilty of this. On the non-partisan side of things, it's just a failure of the imagination... people don't realize that what is said on the campaign trail is not bound by contract and the politicians don't have to fulfill one damn word they said.

I see it as more of a reality check.

Our politicians are quick to wreck each other's reputations just to appear better than their neighbor. But the grand difference between the protestor/lower tier politician and the President is that the President no longer has the luxury of standing behind a pulpet preaching about perfect morality while not having to make the tough decisions.

A President has to consider greater things when staring at genocide and suffering while the opposite Party has the luxury of ridiculing inaction. A President has to let the military loose knowing that collateral damage is and will always be a by product while the opposite Party sheds crocodile tears on camera for the dead civilians. And Bush may have started up "GITMO," but he didn't have the luxury of pretending that he could take his time and trust the humane side of humanity when the possibles and probables began to be captured.

Clinton was the first to defy the UN. He kicked them out of the Bosnia campaign and the UN considered intervention in Kosovoa as "illegal." Did the Democrats complain about "soveriegnty" and join the UN in protest then? And while Clinton was trying to convince Americans that our future threat was going to be the tribe or the terrorist organization as he took steps to kill Osama Bin Laden, the morons were more interested in Monika Lewinski.

The American people dissapoint me often. Few are tuned in and many of those that are, seek a politician to be straight with them instead of looking at the issues for themselves. And in the end, it's never their fault for choosing to be ignorant, but the politician who "lied" to them or didn't spoon feed them properly. Somehow, Americans feel that if they aren't given all the information when they want it about everything, then they are being lied to or that somehting must be amiss. But the fact is that Americans have to accept that our government does things that are none of their business because in the end, what the everyday Internet surfing American knows, the enemy knows too. Dudes are on Twitter.

President Obama will do what he feels is necessary to deal with not only the "War on Terror" but the entire region in which our enemies are born and bred in great numbers. This means that despite his campaign personality of smiles, hugs, and rainbows, he will be making the tough decisions that go along with the very same effort we've been party too since 9/11.

And how many Americans will simply drool and choose to remain in the dark as they seek one topic to the next to either protest or ignore according to who's guy sits upon high?
 
This reinforces the idea that if you are guilty, you want to be tried by a civilian court.

As an aside:
What, exactly DO you do with the platoon of insurgents that your troops captured after a protracted gun battle?

When a terrorist wants a red carpet honor

Give them an army of lawyers and more freedom. That way they wont develop "psychological" problems.


"Staying in one room I might develop some psychological problems and things should not go out of hand.“
 
What, exactly DO you do with the platoon of insurgents that your troops captured after a protracted gun battle?

I didn't envy Bush's position. Terrorism defies the tactics of traditional warfare, along with its traditional rules that make it very black and white who the enemy is. Since terrorists are transnational there has to be a way of detaining them outside of the combat zone. I just think it could have been done better.

The war on terror meant reassessing who the enemy combatants were and redefining the term. I don't disagree with that. I just think it was done in a very self-serving way, without consulting the UN, by detaining citizens of American allies and telling their governments to sod off, even detaining American citizens and denying them habeas corpus. I found that the changes to the definition and the powers accompanying those changes were much too broad.

With some moderate reforms Bush could have curbed public outrage a lot while still maintaining the impetus for the war on terror, but he dug in his heels according to the values of the far-right in the GOP.
 
I didn't envy Bush's position. Terrorism defies the tactics of traditional warfare, along with its traditional rules that make it very black and white who the enemy is. Since terrorists are transnational there has to be a way of detaining them outside of the combat zone. I just think it could have been done better.

The war on terror meant reassessing who the enemy combatants were and redefining the term. I don't disagree with that. I just think it was done in a very self-serving way, without consulting the UN, by detaining citizens of American allies and telling their governments to sod off, even detaining American citizens and denying them habeas corpus. I found that the changes to the definition and the powers accompanying those changes were much too broad.

With some moderate reforms Bush could have curbed public outrage a lot while still maintaining the impetus for the war on terror, but he dug in his heels according to the values of the far-right in the GOP.


So do you think Obama magically turned into Bush when he started receiving Presidential briefings or was that the plan all along?
 
I didn't envy Bush's position. Terrorism defies the tactics of traditional warfare, along with its traditional rules that make it very black and white who the enemy is. Since terrorists are transnational there has to be a way of detaining them outside of the combat zone. I just think it could have been done better.
Yes... with the first thing being the announcement that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to a conflict such as this, as they were intended to deal with behavior in a war between states. As thats not what we have here, they cannot effectively apply.
 
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No one has said anything about Obama using the Bush method after he said he wouldn't. IMO, Military Tribunals was the only way to put the terrorists on trial.

Under Bush, the tribunal system convicted a total of 3 detainees out of 241 in eight years. This was the "Bush method". If Obama really has tribunals, it will be a big improvement.
 
Under Bush, the tribunal system convicted a total of 3 detainees out of 241 in eight years. This was the "Bush method". If Obama really has tribunals, it will be a big improvement.
Why? Just because Dear Leader is "convicting" these non-criminal detainees?
 
Oh, you are saying the detainees are innocent? How do you know that?

images


Your leap to a far away conclusion skillz are indeed impressive.

I am pretty sure he was suggesting a "not applicable" state.
 
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