Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 27

Thread: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

  1. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Last Seen
    07-18-09 @ 04:56 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    1,041

    Re: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe1991 View Post
    How is resuming the trials holding them indefinately?

    Even Bushco released hundreds of these "enemy combatants" when it was found out they were just goat-herders.

    The fact that there was never even a declared war (except on an adverb) means that this should have been a police action all along. We need to either find them guilty of something or let them go.

    I also find it funny that conservatives are trying to rag on Obama for trying to fix this mess.

    Do you also blame the plumber for having to dig out the toys your kids tried to flush down the toilet?
    Left blocked trials for Years. Obama made dismantling them a campaign slogan.

    In 6 months will you (or the rest of the left since they will all pull your routine) remember what planet your on if it doesn't fit the rote?


    Obama helped make the mess. Now he needs to hold trials in haste becasue he stupidly closed a prison to placate dips.


    If Obama turns around and says Gitmo cannot be closed I have no doubt whatsoever that just about every lefty here will not only agree with him but deny they ever wanted the place shut down.
    Just like joe1991(and most of the left in general) has done with the trials.
    Last edited by Triad; 05-16-09 at 06:07 PM.

  2. #12
    Sage
    akyron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:40 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    6,474

    Re: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    If Obama turns around and says Gitmo cannot be closed I have no doubt whatsoever that just about every lefty here will not only agree with him but deny they ever wanted the place shut down.
    .
    Looking at the executive order announcing his intention to close gitmo and the events following that announcment I have come to the conclusion that his words have been consistent with most politician's campaign promisies.
    I agree with what he is doing this time but at some point his liberal supports are going to catch on with the fact that Obama=Bush in more ways than not.
    Thank you

  3. #13
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    18,037

    Re: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

    Quote Originally Posted by akyron View Post
    Looking at the executive order announcing his intention to close gitmo and the events following that announcment I have come to the conclusion that his words have been consistent with most politician's campaign promisies.
    I agree with what he is doing this time but at some point his liberal supports are going to catch on with the fact that Obama=Bush in more ways than not.
    That's because like Bush, Obama is now faced with information he didn't have when he was embracing partisan protest leading to the White House steps. I told people this last year and they denied that Obama would ever adopt policies that they have criticized for years. But what do we see in those who went out of their way to label Bush as a Nazi, a tyrant, and a murderer? Have civilians been killed in Afghanistan under Obama? Gitmo closed? Those infamous military tribunals Obama and Democrats criticized gone away? All of a sudden those that criticized Bush now find excuses to support Obama.

    What a joke. Funny how the political party most faced towards reality is always the one that has a representative in the White House while the other seeks mere protest and schemes.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  4. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Last Seen
    12-26-10 @ 06:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,083

    Re: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    That's because like Bush, Obama is now faced with information he didn't have when he was embracing partisan protest leading to the White House steps. I told people this last year and they denied that Obama would ever adopt policies that they have criticized for years. But what do we see in those who went out of their way to label Bush as a Nazi, a tyrant, and a murderer? Have civilians been killed in Afghanistan under Obama? Gitmo closed? Those infamous military tribunals Obama and Democrats criticized gone away? All of a sudden those that criticized Bush now find excuses to support Obama.

    What a joke. Funny how the political party most faced towards reality is always the one that has a representative in the White House while the other seeks mere protest and schemes.
    I said the same thing during Obama's campaign. The campaign trail is always full of idealism but once the President elect enters office there will be forces greater than his ideology that will make him succumb to the status quo.

    I do find there is an important difference between Bush and Obama though. Bush found new use for Gitmo, reinvented the term "enemy combatant", and used the tribunal system to his administration's advantage. This is the framework that Obama has inherited and, once on the inside, has found that it's not a simple matter of signing paper and making it go away. It is the legacy of almost a decade of policy making.

    So while you can blame Obama for maintaining it you can't blame him for its invention. I do agree through that partisan hacks have a hard time looking at the big picture, and those who formerly threw stones are now on the receiving end. Both sides of the political spectrum are guilty of this. On the non-partisan side of things, it's just a failure of the imagination... people don't realize that what is said on the campaign trail is not bound by contract and the politicians don't have to fulfill one damn word they said.

  5. #15
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    18,037

    Re: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I said the same thing during Obama's campaign. The campaign trail is always full of idealism but once the President elect enters office there will be forces greater than his ideology that will make him succumb to the status quo.

    I do find there is an important difference between Bush and Obama though. Bush found new use for Gitmo, reinvented the term "enemy combatant", and used the tribunal system to his administration's advantage. This is the framework that Obama has inherited and, once on the inside, has found that it's not a simple matter of signing paper and making it go away. It is the legacy of almost a decade of policy making.

    So while you can blame Obama for maintaining it you can't blame him for its invention. I do agree through that partisan hacks have a hard time looking at the big picture, and those who formerly threw stones are now on the receiving end. Both sides of the political spectrum are guilty of this. On the non-partisan side of things, it's just a failure of the imagination... people don't realize that what is said on the campaign trail is not bound by contract and the politicians don't have to fulfill one damn word they said.
    I see it as more of a reality check.

    Our politicians are quick to wreck each other's reputations just to appear better than their neighbor. But the grand difference between the protestor/lower tier politician and the President is that the President no longer has the luxury of standing behind a pulpet preaching about perfect morality while not having to make the tough decisions.

    A President has to consider greater things when staring at genocide and suffering while the opposite Party has the luxury of ridiculing inaction. A President has to let the military loose knowing that collateral damage is and will always be a by product while the opposite Party sheds crocodile tears on camera for the dead civilians. And Bush may have started up "GITMO," but he didn't have the luxury of pretending that he could take his time and trust the humane side of humanity when the possibles and probables began to be captured.

    Clinton was the first to defy the UN. He kicked them out of the Bosnia campaign and the UN considered intervention in Kosovoa as "illegal." Did the Democrats complain about "soveriegnty" and join the UN in protest then? And while Clinton was trying to convince Americans that our future threat was going to be the tribe or the terrorist organization as he took steps to kill Osama Bin Laden, the morons were more interested in Monika Lewinski.

    The American people dissapoint me often. Few are tuned in and many of those that are, seek a politician to be straight with them instead of looking at the issues for themselves. And in the end, it's never their fault for choosing to be ignorant, but the politician who "lied" to them or didn't spoon feed them properly. Somehow, Americans feel that if they aren't given all the information when they want it about everything, then they are being lied to or that somehting must be amiss. But the fact is that Americans have to accept that our government does things that are none of their business because in the end, what the everyday Internet surfing American knows, the enemy knows too. Dudes are on Twitter.

    President Obama will do what he feels is necessary to deal with not only the "War on Terror" but the entire region in which our enemies are born and bred in great numbers. This means that despite his campaign personality of smiles, hugs, and rainbows, he will be making the tough decisions that go along with the very same effort we've been party too since 9/11.

    And how many Americans will simply drool and choose to remain in the dark as they seek one topic to the next to either protest or ignore according to who's guy sits upon high?

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  6. #16
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    This reinforces the idea that if you are guilty, you want to be tried by a civilian court.

    As an aside:
    What, exactly DO you do with the platoon of insurgents that your troops captured after a protracted gun battle?

  7. #17
    Sage
    akyron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:40 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    6,474

    Re: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This reinforces the idea that if you are guilty, you want to be tried by a civilian court.

    As an aside:
    What, exactly DO you do with the platoon of insurgents that your troops captured after a protracted gun battle?
    When a terrorist wants a red carpet honor

    Give them an army of lawyers and more freedom. That way they wont develop "psychological" problems.


    "Staying in one room I might develop some psychological problems and things should not go out of hand.
    Thank you

  8. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Last Seen
    12-26-10 @ 06:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,083

    Re: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    What, exactly DO you do with the platoon of insurgents that your troops captured after a protracted gun battle?
    I didn't envy Bush's position. Terrorism defies the tactics of traditional warfare, along with its traditional rules that make it very black and white who the enemy is. Since terrorists are transnational there has to be a way of detaining them outside of the combat zone. I just think it could have been done better.

    The war on terror meant reassessing who the enemy combatants were and redefining the term. I don't disagree with that. I just think it was done in a very self-serving way, without consulting the UN, by detaining citizens of American allies and telling their governments to sod off, even detaining American citizens and denying them habeas corpus. I found that the changes to the definition and the powers accompanying those changes were much too broad.

    With some moderate reforms Bush could have curbed public outrage a lot while still maintaining the impetus for the war on terror, but he dug in his heels according to the values of the far-right in the GOP.

  9. #19
    Sage
    akyron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:40 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    6,474

    Re: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I didn't envy Bush's position. Terrorism defies the tactics of traditional warfare, along with its traditional rules that make it very black and white who the enemy is. Since terrorists are transnational there has to be a way of detaining them outside of the combat zone. I just think it could have been done better.

    The war on terror meant reassessing who the enemy combatants were and redefining the term. I don't disagree with that. I just think it was done in a very self-serving way, without consulting the UN, by detaining citizens of American allies and telling their governments to sod off, even detaining American citizens and denying them habeas corpus. I found that the changes to the definition and the powers accompanying those changes were much too broad.

    With some moderate reforms Bush could have curbed public outrage a lot while still maintaining the impetus for the war on terror, but he dug in his heels according to the values of the far-right in the GOP.

    So do you think Obama magically turned into Bush when he started receiving Presidential briefings or was that the plan all along?
    Thank you

  10. #20
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Obama to revive Gitmo tribunals

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I didn't envy Bush's position. Terrorism defies the tactics of traditional warfare, along with its traditional rules that make it very black and white who the enemy is. Since terrorists are transnational there has to be a way of detaining them outside of the combat zone. I just think it could have been done better.
    Yes... with the first thing being the announcement that the Geneva Conventions do not apply to a conflict such as this, as they were intended to deal with behavior in a war between states. As thats not what we have here, they cannot effectively apply.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 05-20-09 at 12:56 PM.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •