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Thread: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

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    Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    A few interesting snippets from the article.

    U.S. Energy Department funding for hydrogen-related projects would be cut by 60 percent to $68.2 million next fiscal year under budget plans that President Barack Obama presented last week. Energy Secretary Steven Chu said the department will concentrate on projects such as hydrogen power for buildings because it’s unlikely the fuel can be widely deployed for vehicles anytime soon.
    Cheaper, longer-lasting fuel-cell stack and hydrogen-tank materials should be ready in five years, Honda President Takeo Fukui said in an April 23 interview in Detroit. Fukui, 64, is retiring as head of Japan’s second-largest carmaker next month.
    Toyota said in January it will sell fuel-cell cars in 2015, and South Korea’s Hyundai Motor Co. and Germany’s Daimler AG also are planning hydrogen vehicles for retail customers.
    The policy shift is “very disappointing,” said Dan Sperling, director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at the University of California, Davis and a member of the state’s Air Resources Board. The agency has authority to set environmental rules for carmakers and other industries rivaling the federal government’s.

    “It’s unclear how we’re going to get big reductions in greenhouse gas emissions without hydrogen,” Sperling said. “Hydrogen is the most challenging in terms of implementation because of the need for new fueling infrastructure.”

    That could be created in 10 to 15 years at less cost than the “$6 billion to $10 billion” the U.S. provides annually in subsidies for corn ethanol, Sperling said.
    I'm no expert on alternative fuel, but fuel cell technology always struck me as rather promising. Its apparently promising enough that automakers are going to move ahead even with the deep cuts in government funding.

    The biggest hurdle I've always heard is exactly what is said in the last quote, creating the new fuel infrastructure - i.e. fueling stations. Though according to the expert quoted there, it could be done in 10 to 15 years for what we spend in one year on corn ethanol subsidies.

    It seems to be ashame to pull the rug out on funding for technology as it nears being able to enter the market. I think if we can overcome the infrastructure hurdle, that hydrogen fuel cells could be a big success. Their performance is already equivilent to gas powered cars according to the article and they have a current range of 240 miles before needing refueling. Not great, but adaquete and I think the newer fuel cells due to come out in five years will probably improve on that. In terms of miles to fuel ration, the article said it was already at the equivilent of 60 miles to the gallon.
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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    HERE IS WHERE THE LIBERALS PROVE THEIR HYPOCRACY BEYOND ALL DOUBT. They cried and whined for 8 years about Big Oil and the Right fighting against alternative energy...namely Hydrogen. NOW.... they dump it. Those liberals are liars.
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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    According to former U.S. Department of Energy official Joseph Romm, "A hydrogen car is one of the least efficient, most expensive ways to reduce greenhouse gases." Asked when hydrogen cars will be broadly available, Romm replied: "Not in our lifetime, and very possibly never."[46] The Los Angeles Times wrote, in February 2009, "Hydrogen fuel-cell technology won't work in cars.... Any way you look at it, hydrogen is a lousy way to move cars.

    Hydrogen vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    According to former U.S. Department of Energy official Joseph Romm, "A hydrogen car is one of the least efficient, most expensive ways to reduce greenhouse gases." Asked when hydrogen cars will be broadly available, Romm replied: "Not in our lifetime, and very possibly never."[46] The Los Angeles Times wrote, in February 2009, "Hydrogen fuel-cell technology won't work in cars.... Any way you look at it, hydrogen is a lousy way to move cars.

    Hydrogen vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Yes, I read that quote as well and I'll admit I'm not well informed on the pros and cons of the various alternative fuel ideas out there. I've read bad things on ethonal, that it takes mroe energy to make it than it provides, making a net energy loss and doing nothing to increase efficiency. In fact almost every alternative fuel seems to have some counter argument against it.

    For hydrogen fuel cells I have to wonder one thing. If its so lousy, why are so many major auto manufacturers going ahead with it? I gotta think they have some idea of what will and won't work.
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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Yes, I read that quote as well and I'll admit I'm not well informed on the pros and cons of the various alternative fuel ideas out there. I've read bad things on ethonal, that it takes mroe energy to make it than it provides, making a net energy loss and doing nothing to increase efficiency. In fact almost every alternative fuel seems to have some counter argument against it.

    For hydrogen fuel cells I have to wonder one thing. If its so lousy, why are so many major auto manufacturers going ahead with it? I gotta think they have some idea of what will and won't work.
    Thats the best argument, if it doesn't work why are they pursuing it.

    I'm not sure if they are using Browns gas or if it is strictly H.
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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Yes, I read that quote as well and I'll admit I'm not well informed on the pros and cons of the various alternative fuel ideas out there. I've read bad things on ethonal, that it takes mroe energy to make it than it provides, making a net energy loss and doing nothing to increase efficiency. In fact almost every alternative fuel seems to have some counter argument against it.

    For hydrogen fuel cells I have to wonder one thing. If its so lousy, why are so many major auto manufacturers going ahead with it? I gotta think they have some idea of what will and won't work.
    Well from my research you are pretty much right. Alot of the alternative fuels have a counter argument against it but I think people are failing to understand that its not cheap we are necessarily looking for, its how renewable the alternative fuel is.
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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Yes, I read that quote as well and I'll admit I'm not well informed on the pros and cons of the various alternative fuel ideas out there. I've read bad things on ethonal, that it takes mroe energy to make it than it provides, making a net energy loss and doing nothing to increase efficiency. In fact almost every alternative fuel seems to have some counter argument against it.

    For hydrogen fuel cells I have to wonder one thing. If its so lousy, why are so many major auto manufacturers going ahead with it? I gotta think they have some idea of what will and won't work.
    As an article published in the March/April 2007 issue of Technology Review stated,
    In the context of the overall energy economy, a car like the BMW Hydrogen 7 would proba*bly produce far more carbon dioxide emissions than gasoline-powered cars available today. And changing this calculation would take multiple breakthroughs--which study after study has predicted will take decades, if they arrive at all. In fact, the Hydrogen 7 and its hydrogen-fuel-cell cousins are, in many ways, simply flashy distractions produced by automakers who should be taking stronger immediate action to reduce the greenhouse-gas emissions of their cars.[41]

    The Wall Street Journal reported in 2008 that "Top executives from General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. Tuesday expressed doubts about the viability of hydrogen fuel cells for mass-market production in the near term and suggested their companies are now betting that electric cars will prove to be a better way to reduce fuel consumption and cut tailpipe emissions on a large scale."[48]

    In addition, Ballard Power Systems, a leading developer of hydrogen vehicle technology, pulled out of the Hydrogen vehicle business in late 2007.

    Research Capital analyst Jon Hykawy concluded that Ballard saw the industry going nowhere and said: "In my view, the hydrogen car was never alive. The problem was never could you build a fuel cell that would consume hydrogen, produce electricity, and fit in a car. The problem was always, can you make hydrogen fuel at a price point that makes any sense to anybody. And the answer to that to date has been no."[49]
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    Last edited by bhkad; 05-13-09 at 09:22 PM.

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad
    The problem was always, can you make hydrogen fuel at a price point that makes any sense to anybody. And the answer to that to date has been no.
    Check out this link and tell me what you think about their design.

    It runs on regular gas and HHO or Browns Gas. Browns Gas can be made at your house with his set up.

    Note that this guy is the real deal and not an internet scam. He runs a reputable scientific supply company.

    United Nuclear - Hydrogen Fuel Systems
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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    In the context of the overall energy economy, a car like the BMW Hydrogen 7 would proba*bly produce far more carbon dioxide emissions than gasoline-powered cars available today. And changing this calculation would take multiple breakthroughs--which study after study has predicted will take decades, if they arrive at all. In fact, the Hydrogen 7 and its hydrogen-fuel-cell cousins are, in many ways, simply flashy distractions produced by automakers who should be taking stronger immediate action to reduce the greenhouse-gas emissions of their cars.[41]
    How is that possible when the car itself produces nothing but water vapor?

    The Wall Street Journal reported in 2008 that "Top executives from General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. Tuesday expressed doubts about the viability of hydrogen fuel cells for mass-market production in the near term and suggested their companies are now betting that electric cars will prove to be a better way to reduce fuel consumption and cut tailpipe emissions on a large scale."[48]
    Yet Toyota plans on releasing a fuel cell car for retail in 2012. In fact the article said that both Toyota and GMC are going to continue to pursue the technology even after Obama's cuts in funding.

    In addition, Ballard Power Systems, a leading developer of hydrogen vehicle technology, pulled out of the Hydrogen vehicle business in late 2007.

    Research Capital analyst Jon Hykawy concluded that Ballard saw the industry going nowhere and said: "In my view, the hydrogen car was never alive. The problem was never could you build a fuel cell that would consume hydrogen, produce electricity, and fit in a car. The problem was always, can you make hydrogen fuel at a price point that makes any sense to anybody. And the answer to that to date has been no."[49]
    I heard on Glen Beck the fuel cell car will cost $30,000 when it goes retail. Not cheap, but not outrageous depending on other factors.
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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    HERE IS WHERE THE LIBERALS PROVE THEIR HYPOCRACY BEYOND ALL DOUBT. They cried and whined for 8 years about Big Oil and the Right fighting against alternative energy...namely Hydrogen. NOW.... they dump it. Those liberals are liars.
    Steven Chu is pretty bright guy.

    What evidence do you have that this decision was based on anything but the best information available?

    How are they dumping it? Honda, Toyota, Mercedes all seem to be way out in front--5 years out, I think is what the article. So, now we have to catch GM up? Is that your position?

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