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Thread: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    According to former U.S. Department of Energy official Joseph Romm, "A hydrogen car is one of the least efficient, most expensive ways to reduce greenhouse gases." Asked when hydrogen cars will be broadly available, Romm replied: "Not in our lifetime, and very possibly never."[46] The Los Angeles Times wrote, in February 2009, "Hydrogen fuel-cell technology won't work in cars.... Any way you look at it, hydrogen is a lousy way to move cars.

    Hydrogen vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    So what? The lefties insisted we pursue alternative energy including hydrogen and biofuels. They were crazy maniacs about it and trying to kill off profits for Big Oil. I'm sure Halliburton was in there somewhere. They blasted Bush day after day for not having giving us the cars we wanted.
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    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    So what? The lefties insisted we pursue alternative energy including hydrogen and biofuels. They were crazy maniacs about it and trying to kill off profits for Big Oil.
    Yeah, that's what the left wanted, to kill off big oil.

    tell me, then, why do those companies continue to donate to democratic election campaigns???

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Bhkad is correct on this one. Hydrogen is simply unfeasible as a means to power cars because of practical engineering constraints. Hydrogen needs to be used in liquid or compressed form if you want enough in a tank to power a car, and that is extremely impractical. Furthermore, you have to invent an entirely new system to get hydrogen and ship it to cars.

    Although electric cars and biofuels have their own problems, they are far more likely to produce results. Biofuels can't be produced effectively in quantity, but could easily use existing engines and infrastructure. Electric cars are feasible with current technology, although they are not market competitive. Electric cars would require upgrading our power lines and more power plants, but it would use already existing techniques. Biofuels need a more efficient production mechanism to be wild scale, while electric cars need better batteries to out compete gas cars on the market.

    The problem with most "green energy" stuff is that people don't analyze things on technical merits. A ton of "environmentally friendly" products are just clever marketing that entrap the customer. The whole industry could really use a healthy dose of people asking "how practical is this idea?".
    Last edited by rathi; 05-13-09 at 11:35 PM.

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    The hydrogen fuel cell is only part of the equation. There are a lot of viable technologies now for producing hydrogen more cheaply than simple hydrolysis, but it is still expensive and time consuming. You need energy to make hydrogen which sort of defeats the purpose. One method of scaling down the energy cost is to use green energy like solar or wind, but even this cannot produce it on the necessary scale to replace a fossil fuel economy.

    It is logistically sound from a budgetary perspective to abandon funding for hydrogen fuel. The research will continue and if promising innovations happen the government can always reconsider. Not to mention, the U.S. is currently in a recession and recessions are not the best time for mass funding of innovation. Save it for when the economy is back on its feet.

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    According to former U.S. Department of Energy official Joseph Romm, "A hydrogen car is one of the least efficient, most expensive ways to reduce greenhouse gases." Asked when hydrogen cars will be broadly available, Romm replied: "Not in our lifetime, and very possibly never."[46] The Los Angeles Times wrote, in February 2009, "Hydrogen fuel-cell technology won't work in cars.... Any way you look at it, hydrogen is a lousy way to move cars.
    Well, the process seems really inefficient. Let's consider. First of all, if we are doing electrolysis by fossil fuel, that's already defeating the purpose. Second, burning fossil to produce energy is at absolute most 50% efficient. So we're wasting energy there in heaps and bounds. And then you gotta transport that electricity. Electricity leakage may take anywhere between 5% and 15% based on what I've read and the distance. So out of a 100 energy units, we're down to 45. Electrolysis of water is anywhere between 50~80% efficient, I'll do an average of 65%. We're down to 29.25 energy units. I don't have numbers on the efficiency once you put that into the hydrogen car but it can't be all that good. 100 to 29.25. Huh. Never mind that the average car is around 35% efficient and energy is not lost in the process of refining crude into gasoline.

    If someone has the efficiency numbers for wind, I'd like them to do the calculations.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    So what? The lefties insisted we pursue alternative energy including hydrogen and biofuels. They were crazy maniacs about it and trying to kill off profits for Big Oil. I'm sure Halliburton was in there somewhere. They blasted Bush day after day for not having giving us the cars we wanted.
    You mean the lefties that were against corn ethanol?
    Or the lefties against palm oil?
    How about the lefties against hydro?

    Are we again thinking with our butts and not our brains American?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    You mean the lefties that were against corn ethanol?
    Or the lefties against palm oil?
    How about the lefties against hydro?

    Are we again thinking with our butts and not our brains American?
    You probably are.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You probably are.
    lol. I don't stereotype people like you do. And I like how you think I'm thinking out of my butt when I showed your thinking process was incompetent.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Honda, GM Stick to Fuel-Cell Plans as Obama Guts Hydrogen Funds

    There are a lot of right answers in most all of the posts, both pro and con, but if and only if you put those answers into their correct time frames...

    Hydrogen-based fuel cell vehicles are probably still the best long-term solution. The problems that remain are quite formidable: solutions will be difficult and a probably a long time in coming. Thus far, nothing has disproved the concept, but success will depend on advancing the technology such that costs are lowered and safety issues mitigated. As Pogo once said, "There is no heavier burden than great potential."

    In the intermediate term, battery power, and especially plug-ins are highly likely to offer the best bang for the buck. The technology is much, much closer to being practical. We will see quite a few of these in the next five years, and some sooner. These will compete with biofuels in the same time frame; competing technologies which should spur both to greater efforts.

    For the present, its still hybrids and biofuels additives.

    When thinking of alternatives, you have to think in terms of time frames for development.

    But those are just the technologies of which we are currently aware. My feeling is that we will ultimately see technological breakthroughs that will provide radical modifications to one or more of these, rendering the others moot. Or perhaps the breakthroughs will occur in some area to which most are not paying any attention at all, coming right out of left field, as the saying goes.

    Yes, there may have been some budget cuts in one area, but there is still a huge amount of research being devoted to alternative fuels. Consequently, anything can happen. High-test algae, anyone?

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