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Obama to block detainee abuse photos

Once again the argument that people who questioned Bush were labeled anti-American is farcical; they were labeled anti-American when the claimed that the war was based on a lie, the troops were torturing their prisoners and that our troops had already lost the war while our fine young men and women in the Military were fighting and at risk fighting a war that BOTH Democrats and Republicans voted to send them into.

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Are you saying people were labeled un-American for saying that the war was based on a lie and for claiming that the troops were torturing their prisoners?
 
:rofl

HISTORY????????

History doesn't demand a damn thing from anybody. It's over, done with, past tense.

That's why it's called history.

The foolishness of the Madame Defarge's of the Anti-Republicans knows no limits.


I don't expect you to understand, but will explain for the more intelligent readers:

The history of the United States is a record of a long experiment with Democracy. America was the first truly democratic nation, and it made mistakes. Slavery was excused for almost 100 years, but the Civil War ended that practice. The Civil Rights Amendment 100 years later finally brought that issue to rest (on paper). History was vindicated.

It is essential for the future of the United States that it's history remain in balance. When an inequality is recognized, the pendulum must swing to correct it. Even the APPEARANCE of correction is important.

The President of the United States is granted enourmous power, with very little oversight. This trust exists because it was assumed that a president would never violate his responsibility to the Constitution. That responsibility is, after all, enshrined in his oath of office. Nevertheless, our past president clearly took advantage of his position and used his powers for trivial and personal reasons.

In terms of the torture of detainees, this practice has been rejected by the legal system and a vast majority of Americans in general. Even if it were useful (which it isn't) the option to torture has been taken off the table. It was not an option for Bush to reinstate the practice.

So, what do you do with a president who takes advantage of the trust built into our Executive Branch? Just as the Civil War is the example of the solution to slavery, George Bush must be the example of the solution to presidential irresponsibility. The nation must regain its balance and demonstrate it is able to fix the problems inherent in a democracy. We as a people must accept the responsibility and do what is necessary to insure this abuse of power cannot happen again. History demands it.
 
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Its nice to know that Obama is not a total loony leftist.
 
I gotta say, this makes me more curious about the photos than ever.

If releasing them will bring added risks to the troops, Obama is doing the right thing. Simple as that.

I'm not going to use personal bias to speculate as to underlying motives. I'll take the reasons stated at face value because of Occams razor.

This is the argument that the Bush administration made, and it is the argument now being made by Obama.

The simplest explanation would therefore be: It would bring added risks to the troops to release the photos.

This means two things:

1. Obama is willing to change his stance in order to protect the troops. Commendable

2. Bush should be considered "vindicated" for not releasing these photos since it appears his reasons were valid.

Kudos to both of 'em.

IMO, the safety of the troops should always be the number one concern for any CinC when it comes to military issues.
 
POLITICO 44: Whiteboard Archives


This may be one in a million post but when the dip pulls his head out of his ass...even if for only a brief spate of fresh air . I can agree with him.


Other then serving as the Far Lefts porn the release of such things while at war only aids the enemy.

I admit I am disappointed with this decision but just because it would be nice to get a little vindication for arguing against torture which is selfish. I don't agree with the reason behind it either. If the release of the photos make it more dangerous for our military personnel, the blood is on the hands of the torturers not the president. (and before anyone bitches me out for this opinion, think about how drill sergants punish their least productive squad member in some cases, e.g. punish the whole squad with bathroom clean up and have the poor performer watch, that means the troops are trained for it.)

Of course, President Obama is a smart man, and knows that if there is even a slight increase in violence in Iraq or afghanistan after the release of the photos, the shrill right wing talking heads will try to drag him over the coals. But thats only the added bonus for the real reason, whatever that is. I speculate that there is some kind problem with the photos. Perhaps there is a Senator's kid in one of them. Or maybe Dicky C. had a CIA buddy make a couple of threatening phone calls.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens I guess.
 
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I gotta say, this makes me more curious about the photos than ever.

If releasing them will bring added risks to the troops, Obama is doing the right thing. Simple as that.

I'm not going to use personal bias to speculate as to underlying motives. I'll take the reasons stated at face value because of Occams razor.

This is the argument that the Bush administration made, and it is the argument now being made by Obama.

The simplest explanation would therefore be: It would bring added risks to the troops to release the photos.

This means two things:

1. Obama is willing to change his stance in order to protect the troops. Commendable

2. Bush should be considered "vindicated" for not releasing these photos since it appears his reasons were valid.

Kudos to both of 'em.

IMO, the safety of the troops should always be the number one concern for any CinC when it comes to military issues.

Well I think your position here is interesting. After the Abu Ghraib photos were released, how many of our troops were killed, wounded, or tortured by our enemies as a direct result? Incidents that we can verify were revenge based over the Abu Ghraib and wouldn't have occurred had we not released those photos.

I understand the theory, but given the nature of our enemies, I do not believe they are going to do any more than they are already doing. It's not like they can clock in for overtime at the "Kill Americans" factory. If they could actually carry out more missions against us I think they would, I believe they are operating at their capacity already simply because of their nature. Do they decide that only three days a week are dedicated to jihad and the rest are dedicated to projects around the house? The fact that they probably now know these photos exist would more than likely be a catalyst for an increase in violence against our troops if in fact one was possible.
 
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Well I think your position here is interesting. After the Abu Ghraib photos were released, how many of our troops were killed, wounded, or tortured by our enemies as a direct result? Incidents that we can verify were revenge based over the Abu Ghraib and wouldn't have occurred had we not released those photos.

This comment assumes that the photos are similar to those released from Abu Ghraib. They may be totally different. We can only venture a guess as to why these photos are being considered more dangerous than those pictures, but so far two presidents, with vastly different ideologies and agendas, have come to that conclusion after seeing the pictures.

Again, Occam's razor would indicate that these pictures aren't at the same level as the Abu Ghraib ones. Something must be inherently different between them for there to be this consensus view that they are dangerous, which is what everyone who has seen them has stated.


I understand the theory, but given the nature of our enemies, I do not believe they are going to do any more than they are already doing. It's not like they can clock in for overtime at the "Kill Americans" factory. If they could actually carry out more missions against us I think they would, I believe they are operating at their capacity already simply because of their nature. Do they decide that only three days a week are dedicated to jihad and the rest are dedicated to projects around the house? The fact that they probably now know these photos exist would more than likely be a catalyst for an increase in violence against our troops if in fact one was possible.

I would have to see the inherent differences between these photos and the Abu Ghraib one's before I could make any determination on whether or not they are dangerous.

You might be assuming that the nature of what is being done in the pictures is the reason for them not being released, but it could be something altogether different. I don't know for sure.

The only thing I would speculate on is that there is some fundamental difference between them that increases the danger from releasing these pictures and didn't for Abu Ghraib.

I don't think Obama would stop the release of these pictures if they were just like those from Abu Ghraib. It doesn't make sense for that to be the reasons, so I must conclude there is some other reason that hasn't been described to us.

If the pictures eventually get released, we'll be able to know for sure. But for now, I'll take the words of those who have actually seen the pictures, who come from vastly different ideologies and agendas, yet have reached the same conclusion after seeing them.

That's pretty strong support for them being dangerous, in my opinion.
 
Its nice to know that Obama is not a total loony leftist.

James, your Cicero quote deserves to be printed in larger type, because it perfectly applies to the Bush administration and especially to Dick Cheney:

TREASON

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared
.......Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
 
I mentioned the planned release of these Pentagon photos in this DP post on 4/26...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/1058002274-post10.html

That specific WP link is now invalid but I found the article again here...

Pentagon to Release Prisoner Abuse Photos - washingtonpost.com

According to the article, the government was ordered by a court to release the photos by May 28. An Appeals Court denied a government petition to rehear the case.

William Gates had strong reservations on releasing the photos, but he also felt that the US Supreme Court would not overturn the lower court's ruling. With a number of other lawsuits on this pending, Gates stated that the release of the photos was all but inevitable.

The Bush administration lost this ACLU brought case in court. I imagine that when May 28 rolls around and the photos have not been released, the ACLU will be back in court demanding immediate compliance with the court order which the Pentagon and the Justice Department had agreed to implement.
 
I gotta say, this makes me more curious about the photos than ever.


Me too.


The simplest explanation would therefore be: It would bring added risks to the troops to release the photos.

This means two things:

1. Obama is willing to change his stance in order to protect the troops. Commendable

2. Bush should be considered "vindicated" for not releasing these photos since it appears his reasons were valid.


I don't agree with either of those reasons...more on why below.


I understand the theory, but given the nature of our enemies, I do not believe they are going to do any more than they are already doing. It's not like they can clock in for overtime at the "Kill Americans" factory. If they could actually carry out more missions against us I think they would, I believe they are operating at their capacity already simply because of their nature. Do they decide that only three days a week are dedicated to jihad and the rest are dedicated to projects around the house? The fact that they probably now know these photos exist would more than likely be a catalyst for an increase in violence against our troops if in fact one was possible.

I agree with this. The terrorists want us dead already. The release of the pictures isn't going to change that.

This comment assumes that the photos are similar to those released from Abu Ghraib. They may be totally different. We can only venture a guess as to why these photos are being considered more dangerous than those pictures, but so far two presidents, with vastly different ideologies and agendas, have come to that conclusion after seeing the pictures.


This is where our imagination comes into play. What makes them more dangerous than those released from Abu Ghraib and how are they more dangerous?

If you take Lerxsts opinion as valid (which I do) than the danger lies somewhere else. I don't think our troops can be targeted anymore than they are. I don't think the terrorists can hate America anymore than they do so what makes these pictures more dangerous?

The first thing that comes to mind is that they're more dangerous because they may have the ability to sway public opinion (America and other countries).

I don't think the pushback has much to do with troop safety or American safety. I think the answer may rest with public perception, opinion, policy, etc.

:twocents:
 
I believe it's funny that Obama will not release the pics. Did the demand for the blacked out parts of the statements get to him? Did he know he would have to show thase blacked out parts and make Pelosi out to be a liar? Will the ACLU show it's liberal slant and just let this pass? Too many questions with no answers.
 
I don't expect you to understand, but will explain for the more intelligent readers:

The history of the United States is a record of a long experiment with Democracy.
It is an experiment in liberty, not democracy. The two are not synonymous.

America was the first truly democratic nation, and it made mistakes.
America is not a democratic nation and never has been. Your insistence that it is explains much of your delusion.

Slavery was excused for almost 100 years, but the Civil War ended that practice. The Civil Rights Amendment 100 years later finally brought that issue to rest (on paper). History was vindicated.
You flunked history in high school, didn't you? Slavery was excused? So the Abolitionists did not exist? The Missouri Compromise was a fiction? Calhoun's theories of nullification were a fantasy?

Also, what Civil Rights Amendment was added to the Constitution during the 1960s?

Finally, what "history" was vindicated? Since when did "history" preordain any outcome?

It is essential for the future of the United States that it's history remain in balance. When an inequality is recognized, the pendulum must swing to correct it. Even the APPEARANCE of correction is important.
History is not "balanced". History is a record of what was done and what was said, and no more. History may grant perspective denied us in the present, but it is still merely a record of what was done and what was said. Again, your concept of "history" presumes and demands a foregone conclusion, a preordained notion of what the "right" outcome is in all cases; your concept, in other words, is wrong.

The President of the United States is granted enourmous power, with very little oversight. This trust exists because it was assumed that a president would never violate his responsibility to the Constitution. That responsibility is, after all, enshrined in his oath of office. Nevertheless, our past president clearly took advantage of his position and used his powers for trivial and personal reasons.
Little oversight? Great power? The President of the United States has very little power: he cannot make laws, he cannot declare war, he can only negotiate treaties with the advice and consent of the Senate, he cannot even choose his own advisors without the advice and consent of the Senate. So sayeth the Constitution.

As for the assumption that the President would never violate his duty, that is disproven by the section on impeachment. If there were no anticipation a President might stray from the path, there would be no cause to consider the grounds for and structure of an impeachment proceeding.

As for "taking advantage"--President Bush did not do anything that LBJ did not do, nor even Lincoln. Even the overly sainted FDR was a petulant ass when the other branches of government objected to his ideas.

Again, the facts of your "history" fail to coincide with the history that actually transpired.

In terms of the torture of detainees, this practice has been rejected by the legal system and a vast majority of Americans in general. Even if it were useful (which it isn't) the option to torture has been taken off the table. It was not an option for Bush to reinstate the practice.
From the legal perspective, there was no torture. Dear Leader's ex post facto declaration that waterboarding is torture carries no legal weight; it is an opinion, and nothing more.

So, what do you do with a president who takes advantage of the trust built into our Executive Branch? Just as the Civil War is the example of the solution to slavery, George Bush must be the example of the solution to presidential irresponsibility. The nation must regain its balance and demonstrate it is able to fix the problems inherent in a democracy. We as a people must accept the responsibility and do what is necessary to insure this abuse of power cannot happen again. History demands it.
There is no "trust" built into the Executive Branch. You really should acquaint yourself with the Constitution before you wander off on these whimsies of yours.

If the Civil War is your "solution to slavery", then you are endorsing several thousand times' greater brutality and carnage than can ever be assigned to President Bush.

Moreover, the irresponsibility was not that of President Bush, but of the Congress, and in particular the Anti-Republicans, who hypocritically were passive regarding their presumed opposition to Bush's policies, but who time and again voted in the affirmative for those policies, and who continued that practice even after gaining the majority in 2006. (Anyone who wishes to understand my contempt for the repugnant and cowardly Anti-Republicans need only examine their actions and discourse during the 110th Congress to see how thoroughly despicable and dishonorable they are).

Your false history demands much, but false demands are empty demands--such demands are, to borrow from Macbeth, the quintessential "tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

How people will view Bush from the perspective of history is a matter yet to be decided, nor will that matter be settled by either you or I. My belief is that President Bush will be viewed kindly; my very strong belief is that the gutless and directionless Anti-Republicans will be viewed far less kindly in that perspective, and simply because when given the opportunity to lead, they chose vituperative vilification of President Bush while continuing all that he started, rather than charting the new and different course they promised the American people.
 
James, your Cicero quote deserves to be printed in larger type, because it perfectly applies to the Bush administration and especially to Dick Cheney:

TREASON

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared
.......Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
That quote applies to most of the people in office. The globalist/internationalist , the outsourcers, the multilingualist, those who refuse to secure our borders, those who give away American tax dollars(that Americans worked hard for)to foreign countries, those let foreign nations and companies run our ports, those who let foreign nations make our weapons, the pro-illegal immigration crowd and a lot of other people in office.
 
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I believe it's funny that Obama will not release the pics. Did the demand for the blacked out parts of the statements get to him? Did he know he would have to show thase blacked out parts and make Pelosi out to be a liar? Will the ACLU show it's liberal slant and just let this pass? Too many questions with no answers.

I think maybe he realized that its one thing to be tossing the salad of *****fist(*****+pacifist, yeah I know its basically putting two synonymous words together) by spewing anti-military and anti-war rhetoric and its a completely different thing thing when you are actually in the captains seat and you have to actually think how the consequences of your action might effect everything else.
 
No.1: What do these pics show that we have not already seen and published on the cover of magazines?
Nothing except perhaps the same harsh mistreatment of POWs...if we can call them that. Can we call them that?

No.2: If we already released some why not others?

Because as our Commander and Chief said such pictures would do more harm than good in U.S./foreign relations particularly in the Arab/Muslim world and we don't need that right now.

No.3: Is this a trick by Obama suggesting that this never happens under his watch?

Clever, but I doubt it. I think this president is a lot more sincere than the Reps give him credit for.

No.4: Why did the liberals INSIST on publishing pictures like these under Bush?

Now, this is an interesting question. I'd say that the Dems wanted to rub it in the Reps faces, particularly former Pres. G. W. Bush, to not only show the brutality of the war, but as further proof that the Iraq War shouldn't have happened in the first place. In other words, it very likely was done to humiliate the Bush administration. Of course, what releasing the photos also did was create hostility in the Muslim world, thus, hampering further attempts toward gains in the war effort. That more than anything is probably the main reason Pres. Obama did an about-face on release the prison photos. Regardless of the reasons why, it is the right thing to do.
 
I think maybe he realized that its one thing to be tossing the salad of *****fist(*****+pacifist, yeah I know its basically putting two synonymous words together) by spewing anti-military and anti-war rhetoric and its a completely different thing thing when you are actually in the captains seat and you have to actually think how the consequences of your action might effect everything else.
Maybe he just doesn't want to give the terrorists any ideas. :mrgreen:
 
Maybe he just doesn't want to give the terrorists any ideas. :mrgreen:

For some reason I think water boarding pales in comparison to chopping off heads and burning people. Its a hang nail verses getting ran over by a tank.
 
I think that is the central concern in this decision. Not the harm the photos will cause to the war effort, soldiers, etc but the harm it would cause him. ON every issue Obama tends to "decide" based on the perception it will leave of him.


I'm more inclined towards it being self preservation. But regardless of the reason its the right move.

your ignorance and obvious bias against the president is glaring. So, you think it was just self-serving? That's just stupid. He did it for the troops.

That said, I'm pissed at him for doing it. These photos must be open to the public so we can expose the Bush admins war crimes and put the bastards behind bars. Stop the cover up.
 
For some reason I think water boarding pales in comparison to chopping off heads and burning people. Its a hang nail verses getting ran over by a tank.

Yeahhhhh.... that's justification for illegal torture there..... :roll:
 
Yeahhhhh.... that's justification for illegal torture there..... :roll:

Its amusing what you people consider to be torture. I bet you thought being forced to eat brussels sprouts or your parents forcing you to do chores must have been torture.
 
POLITICO 44: Whiteboard Archives


This may be one in a million post but when the dip pulls his head out of his ass...even if for only a brief spate of fresh air . I can agree with him.


Other then serving as the Far Lefts porn the release of such things while at war only aids the enemy.

I agree with the President on this.
 
So the U.S. government acknowledges there are pictures so terrible, that they cannot be released because they would put troops in danger.

Doesn't the fact that there are ADMITTED pictures so terrible they cannot be released ALREADY put our troops in danger. So at this juncture, what's the point whether they are released or not?

The damage is done and now the U.S. looks like it is hiding something from the world that the U.S. acknowledges is very very bad and the troops will be in danger from this already.

In fact because the human mind can imagine things more horrible than what is on pictures the worse will be assumed and our troops will already be put in more danger because of the photos not being released.
 
Nope.
They admitted the pictures (which afaik are just more from the files of those idiots in that one unit in Abu Ghaib) being released would cause harm to the war effort.
IMO this more they will cause harm to Obama and friends.

Regardless 'horrible' is your line..or someone elses..al jazeera's maybe?
 
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