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Thread: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

  1. #61
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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    I believe it's funny that Obama will not release the pics. Did the demand for the blacked out parts of the statements get to him? Did he know he would have to show thase blacked out parts and make Pelosi out to be a liar? Will the ACLU show it's liberal slant and just let this pass? Too many questions with no answers.

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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I don't expect you to understand, but will explain for the more intelligent readers:

    The history of the United States is a record of a long experiment with Democracy.
    It is an experiment in liberty, not democracy. The two are not synonymous.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    America was the first truly democratic nation, and it made mistakes.
    America is not a democratic nation and never has been. Your insistence that it is explains much of your delusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Slavery was excused for almost 100 years, but the Civil War ended that practice. The Civil Rights Amendment 100 years later finally brought that issue to rest (on paper). History was vindicated.
    You flunked history in high school, didn't you? Slavery was excused? So the Abolitionists did not exist? The Missouri Compromise was a fiction? Calhoun's theories of nullification were a fantasy?

    Also, what Civil Rights Amendment was added to the Constitution during the 1960s?

    Finally, what "history" was vindicated? Since when did "history" preordain any outcome?

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    It is essential for the future of the United States that it's history remain in balance. When an inequality is recognized, the pendulum must swing to correct it. Even the APPEARANCE of correction is important.
    History is not "balanced". History is a record of what was done and what was said, and no more. History may grant perspective denied us in the present, but it is still merely a record of what was done and what was said. Again, your concept of "history" presumes and demands a foregone conclusion, a preordained notion of what the "right" outcome is in all cases; your concept, in other words, is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    The President of the United States is granted enourmous power, with very little oversight. This trust exists because it was assumed that a president would never violate his responsibility to the Constitution. That responsibility is, after all, enshrined in his oath of office. Nevertheless, our past president clearly took advantage of his position and used his powers for trivial and personal reasons.
    Little oversight? Great power? The President of the United States has very little power: he cannot make laws, he cannot declare war, he can only negotiate treaties with the advice and consent of the Senate, he cannot even choose his own advisors without the advice and consent of the Senate. So sayeth the Constitution.

    As for the assumption that the President would never violate his duty, that is disproven by the section on impeachment. If there were no anticipation a President might stray from the path, there would be no cause to consider the grounds for and structure of an impeachment proceeding.

    As for "taking advantage"--President Bush did not do anything that LBJ did not do, nor even Lincoln. Even the overly sainted FDR was a petulant ass when the other branches of government objected to his ideas.

    Again, the facts of your "history" fail to coincide with the history that actually transpired.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    In terms of the torture of detainees, this practice has been rejected by the legal system and a vast majority of Americans in general. Even if it were useful (which it isn't) the option to torture has been taken off the table. It was not an option for Bush to reinstate the practice.
    From the legal perspective, there was no torture. Dear Leader's ex post facto declaration that waterboarding is torture carries no legal weight; it is an opinion, and nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    So, what do you do with a president who takes advantage of the trust built into our Executive Branch? Just as the Civil War is the example of the solution to slavery, George Bush must be the example of the solution to presidential irresponsibility. The nation must regain its balance and demonstrate it is able to fix the problems inherent in a democracy. We as a people must accept the responsibility and do what is necessary to insure this abuse of power cannot happen again. History demands it.
    There is no "trust" built into the Executive Branch. You really should acquaint yourself with the Constitution before you wander off on these whimsies of yours.

    If the Civil War is your "solution to slavery", then you are endorsing several thousand times' greater brutality and carnage than can ever be assigned to President Bush.

    Moreover, the irresponsibility was not that of President Bush, but of the Congress, and in particular the Anti-Republicans, who hypocritically were passive regarding their presumed opposition to Bush's policies, but who time and again voted in the affirmative for those policies, and who continued that practice even after gaining the majority in 2006. (Anyone who wishes to understand my contempt for the repugnant and cowardly Anti-Republicans need only examine their actions and discourse during the 110th Congress to see how thoroughly despicable and dishonorable they are).

    Your false history demands much, but false demands are empty demands--such demands are, to borrow from Macbeth, the quintessential "tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

    How people will view Bush from the perspective of history is a matter yet to be decided, nor will that matter be settled by either you or I. My belief is that President Bush will be viewed kindly; my very strong belief is that the gutless and directionless Anti-Republicans will be viewed far less kindly in that perspective, and simply because when given the opportunity to lead, they chose vituperative vilification of President Bush while continuing all that he started, rather than charting the new and different course they promised the American people.

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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I hope that's his reasoning and if so I applaud it. If it's because the photo's fail to meet the political needs of the current Dem Witch hunts, well...
    Barry doth play both ends against the middle. Don`t be fooled.

  4. #64
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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    James, your Cicero quote deserves to be printed in larger type, because it perfectly applies to the Bush administration and especially to Dick Cheney:

    TREASON

    A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared
    .......Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
    That quote applies to most of the people in office. The globalist/internationalist , the outsourcers, the multilingualist, those who refuse to secure our borders, those who give away American tax dollars(that Americans worked hard for)to foreign countries, those let foreign nations and companies run our ports, those who let foreign nations make our weapons, the pro-illegal immigration crowd and a lot of other people in office.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 05-14-09 at 12:44 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Catman View Post
    I believe it's funny that Obama will not release the pics. Did the demand for the blacked out parts of the statements get to him? Did he know he would have to show thase blacked out parts and make Pelosi out to be a liar? Will the ACLU show it's liberal slant and just let this pass? Too many questions with no answers.
    I think maybe he realized that its one thing to be tossing the salad of pussyfist(pussy+pacifist, yeah I know its basically putting two synonymous words together) by spewing anti-military and anti-war rhetoric and its a completely different thing thing when you are actually in the captains seat and you have to actually think how the consequences of your action might effect everything else.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by rhinefire View Post
    No.1: What do these pics show that we have not already seen and published on the cover of magazines?
    Nothing except perhaps the same harsh mistreatment of POWs...if we can call them that. Can we call them that?

    No.2: If we already released some why not others?
    Because as our Commander and Chief said such pictures would do more harm than good in U.S./foreign relations particularly in the Arab/Muslim world and we don't need that right now.

    No.3: Is this a trick by Obama suggesting that this never happens under his watch?
    Clever, but I doubt it. I think this president is a lot more sincere than the Reps give him credit for.

    No.4: Why did the liberals INSIST on publishing pictures like these under Bush?
    Now, this is an interesting question. I'd say that the Dems wanted to rub it in the Reps faces, particularly former Pres. G. W. Bush, to not only show the brutality of the war, but as further proof that the Iraq War shouldn't have happened in the first place. In other words, it very likely was done to humiliate the Bush administration. Of course, what releasing the photos also did was create hostility in the Muslim world, thus, hampering further attempts toward gains in the war effort. That more than anything is probably the main reason Pres. Obama did an about-face on release the prison photos. Regardless of the reasons why, it is the right thing to do.

  7. #67
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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I think maybe he realized that its one thing to be tossing the salad of pussyfist(pussy+pacifist, yeah I know its basically putting two synonymous words together) by spewing anti-military and anti-war rhetoric and its a completely different thing thing when you are actually in the captains seat and you have to actually think how the consequences of your action might effect everything else.
    Maybe he just doesn't want to give the terrorists any ideas.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  8. #68
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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Maybe he just doesn't want to give the terrorists any ideas.
    For some reason I think water boarding pales in comparison to chopping off heads and burning people. Its a hang nail verses getting ran over by a tank.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #69
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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    I think that is the central concern in this decision. Not the harm the photos will cause to the war effort, soldiers, etc but the harm it would cause him. ON every issue Obama tends to "decide" based on the perception it will leave of him.


    I'm more inclined towards it being self preservation. But regardless of the reason its the right move.
    your ignorance and obvious bias against the president is glaring. So, you think it was just self-serving? That's just stupid. He did it for the troops.

    That said, I'm pissed at him for doing it. These photos must be open to the public so we can expose the Bush admins war crimes and put the bastards behind bars. Stop the cover up.

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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    For some reason I think water boarding pales in comparison to chopping off heads and burning people. Its a hang nail verses getting ran over by a tank.
    Yeahhhhh.... that's justification for illegal torture there.....

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