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Thread: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

  1. #51
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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Once again the argument that people who questioned Bush were labeled anti-American is farcical; they were labeled anti-American when the claimed that the war was based on a lie, the troops were torturing their prisoners and that our troops had already lost the war while our fine young men and women in the Military were fighting and at risk fighting a war that BOTH Democrats and Republicans voted to send them into.

    --
    Are you saying people were labeled un-American for saying that the war was based on a lie and for claiming that the troops were torturing their prisoners?

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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post


    HISTORY????????

    History doesn't demand a damn thing from anybody. It's over, done with, past tense.

    That's why it's called history.

    The foolishness of the Madame Defarge's of the Anti-Republicans knows no limits.

    I don't expect you to understand, but will explain for the more intelligent readers:

    The history of the United States is a record of a long experiment with Democracy. America was the first truly democratic nation, and it made mistakes. Slavery was excused for almost 100 years, but the Civil War ended that practice. The Civil Rights Amendment 100 years later finally brought that issue to rest (on paper). History was vindicated.

    It is essential for the future of the United States that it's history remain in balance. When an inequality is recognized, the pendulum must swing to correct it. Even the APPEARANCE of correction is important.

    The President of the United States is granted enourmous power, with very little oversight. This trust exists because it was assumed that a president would never violate his responsibility to the Constitution. That responsibility is, after all, enshrined in his oath of office. Nevertheless, our past president clearly took advantage of his position and used his powers for trivial and personal reasons.

    In terms of the torture of detainees, this practice has been rejected by the legal system and a vast majority of Americans in general. Even if it were useful (which it isn't) the option to torture has been taken off the table. It was not an option for Bush to reinstate the practice.

    So, what do you do with a president who takes advantage of the trust built into our Executive Branch? Just as the Civil War is the example of the solution to slavery, George Bush must be the example of the solution to presidential irresponsibility. The nation must regain its balance and demonstrate it is able to fix the problems inherent in a democracy. We as a people must accept the responsibility and do what is necessary to insure this abuse of power cannot happen again. History demands it.
    Last edited by WillRockwell; 05-14-09 at 08:51 AM.

  3. #53
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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Its nice to know that Obama is not a total loony leftist.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  4. #54
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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    I gotta say, this makes me more curious about the photos than ever.

    If releasing them will bring added risks to the troops, Obama is doing the right thing. Simple as that.

    I'm not going to use personal bias to speculate as to underlying motives. I'll take the reasons stated at face value because of Occams razor.

    This is the argument that the Bush administration made, and it is the argument now being made by Obama.

    The simplest explanation would therefore be: It would bring added risks to the troops to release the photos.

    This means two things:

    1. Obama is willing to change his stance in order to protect the troops. Commendable

    2. Bush should be considered "vindicated" for not releasing these photos since it appears his reasons were valid.

    Kudos to both of 'em.

    IMO, the safety of the troops should always be the number one concern for any CinC when it comes to military issues.

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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    POLITICO 44: Whiteboard Archives


    This may be one in a million post but when the dip pulls his head out of his ass...even if for only a brief spate of fresh air . I can agree with him.


    Other then serving as the Far Lefts porn the release of such things while at war only aids the enemy.
    I admit I am disappointed with this decision but just because it would be nice to get a little vindication for arguing against torture which is selfish. I don't agree with the reason behind it either. If the release of the photos make it more dangerous for our military personnel, the blood is on the hands of the torturers not the president. (and before anyone bitches me out for this opinion, think about how drill sergants punish their least productive squad member in some cases, e.g. punish the whole squad with bathroom clean up and have the poor performer watch, that means the troops are trained for it.)

    Of course, President Obama is a smart man, and knows that if there is even a slight increase in violence in Iraq or afghanistan after the release of the photos, the shrill right wing talking heads will try to drag him over the coals. But thats only the added bonus for the real reason, whatever that is. I speculate that there is some kind problem with the photos. Perhaps there is a Senator's kid in one of them. Or maybe Dicky C. had a CIA buddy make a couple of threatening phone calls.

    We'll just have to wait and see what happens I guess.
    Last edited by Saboteur; 05-14-09 at 10:06 AM.
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

  6. #56
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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I gotta say, this makes me more curious about the photos than ever.

    If releasing them will bring added risks to the troops, Obama is doing the right thing. Simple as that.

    I'm not going to use personal bias to speculate as to underlying motives. I'll take the reasons stated at face value because of Occams razor.

    This is the argument that the Bush administration made, and it is the argument now being made by Obama.

    The simplest explanation would therefore be: It would bring added risks to the troops to release the photos.

    This means two things:

    1. Obama is willing to change his stance in order to protect the troops. Commendable

    2. Bush should be considered "vindicated" for not releasing these photos since it appears his reasons were valid.

    Kudos to both of 'em.

    IMO, the safety of the troops should always be the number one concern for any CinC when it comes to military issues.
    Well I think your position here is interesting. After the Abu Ghraib photos were released, how many of our troops were killed, wounded, or tortured by our enemies as a direct result? Incidents that we can verify were revenge based over the Abu Ghraib and wouldn't have occurred had we not released those photos.

    I understand the theory, but given the nature of our enemies, I do not believe they are going to do any more than they are already doing. It's not like they can clock in for overtime at the "Kill Americans" factory. If they could actually carry out more missions against us I think they would, I believe they are operating at their capacity already simply because of their nature. Do they decide that only three days a week are dedicated to jihad and the rest are dedicated to projects around the house? The fact that they probably now know these photos exist would more than likely be a catalyst for an increase in violence against our troops if in fact one was possible.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 05-14-09 at 10:22 AM.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Well I think your position here is interesting. After the Abu Ghraib photos were released, how many of our troops were killed, wounded, or tortured by our enemies as a direct result? Incidents that we can verify were revenge based over the Abu Ghraib and wouldn't have occurred had we not released those photos.
    This comment assumes that the photos are similar to those released from Abu Ghraib. They may be totally different. We can only venture a guess as to why these photos are being considered more dangerous than those pictures, but so far two presidents, with vastly different ideologies and agendas, have come to that conclusion after seeing the pictures.

    Again, Occam's razor would indicate that these pictures aren't at the same level as the Abu Ghraib ones. Something must be inherently different between them for there to be this consensus view that they are dangerous, which is what everyone who has seen them has stated.


    I understand the theory, but given the nature of our enemies, I do not believe they are going to do any more than they are already doing. It's not like they can clock in for overtime at the "Kill Americans" factory. If they could actually carry out more missions against us I think they would, I believe they are operating at their capacity already simply because of their nature. Do they decide that only three days a week are dedicated to jihad and the rest are dedicated to projects around the house? The fact that they probably now know these photos exist would more than likely be a catalyst for an increase in violence against our troops if in fact one was possible.
    I would have to see the inherent differences between these photos and the Abu Ghraib one's before I could make any determination on whether or not they are dangerous.

    You might be assuming that the nature of what is being done in the pictures is the reason for them not being released, but it could be something altogether different. I don't know for sure.

    The only thing I would speculate on is that there is some fundamental difference between them that increases the danger from releasing these pictures and didn't for Abu Ghraib.

    I don't think Obama would stop the release of these pictures if they were just like those from Abu Ghraib. It doesn't make sense for that to be the reasons, so I must conclude there is some other reason that hasn't been described to us.

    If the pictures eventually get released, we'll be able to know for sure. But for now, I'll take the words of those who have actually seen the pictures, who come from vastly different ideologies and agendas, yet have reached the same conclusion after seeing them.

    That's pretty strong support for them being dangerous, in my opinion.

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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Its nice to know that Obama is not a total loony leftist.
    James, your Cicero quote deserves to be printed in larger type, because it perfectly applies to the Bush administration and especially to Dick Cheney:

    TREASON

    A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared
    .......Cicero, 42 B.C.E.

  9. #59
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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    I mentioned the planned release of these Pentagon photos in this DP post on 4/26...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/1058002274-post10.html

    That specific WP link is now invalid but I found the article again here...

    Pentagon to Release Prisoner Abuse Photos - washingtonpost.com

    According to the article, the government was ordered by a court to release the photos by May 28. An Appeals Court denied a government petition to rehear the case.

    William Gates had strong reservations on releasing the photos, but he also felt that the US Supreme Court would not overturn the lower court's ruling. With a number of other lawsuits on this pending, Gates stated that the release of the photos was all but inevitable.

    The Bush administration lost this ACLU brought case in court. I imagine that when May 28 rolls around and the photos have not been released, the ACLU will be back in court demanding immediate compliance with the court order which the Pentagon and the Justice Department had agreed to implement.

    אשכנזי היהודי • Белый Россию

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    Re: Obama to block detainee abuse photos

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I gotta say, this makes me more curious about the photos than ever.

    Me too.


    The simplest explanation would therefore be: It would bring added risks to the troops to release the photos.

    This means two things:

    1. Obama is willing to change his stance in order to protect the troops. Commendable

    2. Bush should be considered "vindicated" for not releasing these photos since it appears his reasons were valid.

    I don't agree with either of those reasons...more on why below.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post

    I understand the theory, but given the nature of our enemies, I do not believe they are going to do any more than they are already doing. It's not like they can clock in for overtime at the "Kill Americans" factory. If they could actually carry out more missions against us I think they would, I believe they are operating at their capacity already simply because of their nature. Do they decide that only three days a week are dedicated to jihad and the rest are dedicated to projects around the house? The fact that they probably now know these photos exist would more than likely be a catalyst for an increase in violence against our troops if in fact one was possible.
    I agree with this. The terrorists want us dead already. The release of the pictures isn't going to change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    This comment assumes that the photos are similar to those released from Abu Ghraib. They may be totally different. We can only venture a guess as to why these photos are being considered more dangerous than those pictures, but so far two presidents, with vastly different ideologies and agendas, have come to that conclusion after seeing the pictures.

    This is where our imagination comes into play. What makes them more dangerous than those released from Abu Ghraib and how are they more dangerous?

    If you take Lerxsts opinion as valid (which I do) than the danger lies somewhere else. I don't think our troops can be targeted anymore than they are. I don't think the terrorists can hate America anymore than they do so what makes these pictures more dangerous?

    The first thing that comes to mind is that they're more dangerous because they may have the ability to sway public opinion (America and other countries).

    I don't think the pushback has much to do with troop safety or American safety. I think the answer may rest with public perception, opinion, policy, etc.



    I would chat with her when I'm feeling particularly snarky, but I wouldn't ever call her on the phone.

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