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Thread: Chavez seizes oil service firms

  1. #71
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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    So basically "anti-Leninists".
    Well I don't think it is fair to define these people simply as opposed to Lenin.

    I never understood this obsession with either anti-authoritarianism or decentralization.
    That is why you are not a libertarian socialist.

    Any form of economic planning is going to have to take place in a centralized manner,
    Not according to libertarian socialists.
    whether that is through a single economic authority or through the cooperation and coordination of individual communities into a centralized body. It has to be planned in some centralized way.
    It takes a level of coordination but libertarian socialists believe they can keep most power very local.

    As for political centralization, this is pretty much irrelevant to the distinction between "Leninists" and "libertarian socialists". The charge is commonly leveled against "Leninists" that they want to create a centralized state apparatus that rules over society for the purpose of managing the transition; it is essentially a charge of Blanqui'ism, and that is simply ridiculous. There is a reason that power was given to the Soviets following the Bolshevik seizure of power.
    Power was taken away from the Soviets by Lenin. He had a whole agenda called democratic centralism and state centralisation seems to me a major part of Leninism.


    What do you mean by "Marxist monism"?
    Having no time, or at least appreciation, for any groups between the individual and the central state particularly those with any kind of autonomy or intermediate identity.


    What?
    I didn't say that.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Well I don't think it is fair to define these people simply as opposed to Lenin.
    I'm not defining them "simply" as opposed to Lenin. I'm defining the term "libertarian socialist" to encompass anyone opposed to Lenin, as I have never seen any other definition, and it is commonly used in opposition to "Leninism".

    It takes a level of coordination but libertarian socialists believe they can keep most power very local.
    The problem that I have found with most "libertarian socialists'" "decentralized" models is that they are not really that decentralized at all; sure, they are federated, but they are still managed in a centralized manner. And that is because it is impossible not to manage an entire economy in a centralized manner. It would lead to complete chaos.

    Power was taken away from the Soviets by Lenin.
    I think that this thread is pretty interesting, particularly ComradeOm's posts regarding this manner (specifically [ame="http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1436465&postcount=16"]this post[/ame]).

    He had a whole agenda called democratic centralism
    Democratic centralism was an organizational method used earlier by Marx in the Communist League and the First International. It has to do on the shifting of the balance of democracy and centralism in order to be able to react quickly to events and be the most effective. Granted, there are other forms of organization that "libertarian socialists" would take, but democratic centralism started (as far as I know) with Marx, not Lenin.

    and state centralisation seems to me a major part of Leninism.
    What do you mean by "state centralization" specifically and what do you mean by "Leninism" as well? The biggest problem I find with critiques of "Leninism" is that they take the actions of the Bolshevik party and extrapolate them as general principles which Lenin and/or the Bolsheviks could be applied elsewhere. That, to me, is an incredibly dishonest way of opportunistically attacking a political opponent. Most of the claims, as well, have been demolished by Hal Draper in this book.

    Having no time, or at least appreciation, for any groups between the individual and the central state particularly those with any kind of autonomy or intermediate identity.
    I'm still not sure to what you're referring. Could you please elaborate?

    I didn't say that.
    I know; I don't generally label quotes because they turn the whole damn thing italic, which is really annoying.

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Is this the man that Obama wants to be buddy-buddy with?



    venezuelanalysis.com | Venezuela News, Views, and Analysis

    On Saturday, the Venezuelan government rejected the annual report of the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR), which categorized Venezuela as one of four countries in the hemisphere where human rights are particularly threatened. President Hugo Chávez said Venezuela will consider withdrawing from the Organization of American States (OAS) and forming a separate regional organization with its allies
    Last edited by Catman; 05-13-09 at 10:59 AM.

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I'm not defining them "simply" as opposed to Lenin. I'm defining the term "libertarian socialist" to encompass anyone opposed to Lenin, as I have never seen any other definition, and it is commonly used in opposition to "Leninism".
    Well it is opposed to all social democracy and "state" socialism.


    The problem that I have found with most "libertarian socialists'" "decentralized" models is that they are not really that decentralized at all; sure, they are federated, but they are still managed in a centralized manner. And that is because it is impossible not to manage an entire economy in a centralized manner. It would lead to complete chaos.
    I think you should look into Kropotkin, Bookchin and such, many of these want a more localised and regionalised economy.

    Now I don't want to get into the ins and outs, positives and negatives of this but it is an alternative, at least in theory, to a centralised or even large, closely federated economy.


    I think that this thread is pretty interesting, particularly ComradeOm's posts regarding this manner (specifically this post).



    Democratic centralism was an organizational method used earlier by Marx in the Communist League and the First International. It has to do on the shifting of the balance of democracy and centralism in order to be able to react quickly to events and be the most effective. Granted, there are other forms of organization that "libertarian socialists" would take, but democratic centralism started (as far as I know) with Marx, not Lenin.
    I know, Marx seems to have little appreciation of decentralism either but I don't think that one can get away from the fact that that Lenin and most Orthodox Marxism seems to be about giving quite a bit of scope, politically and economically, to the central state and cannot be said to have a deep appreciation of decentralism or a large role for such decentralist organisations unlike libertarian socialists.

    What do you mean by "state centralization" specifically and what do you mean by "Leninism" as well? The biggest problem I find with critiques of "Leninism" is that they take the actions of the Bolshevik party and extrapolate them as general principles which Lenin and/or the Bolsheviks could be applied elsewhere. That, to me, is an incredibly dishonest way of opportunistically attacking a political opponent. Most of the claims, as well, have been demolished by Hal Draper in this book.
    I'll give you that, it has been a long time since I have read any orthodox Marxist stuff. I'm just more talking broadly about a state socialism where a lot of decisions, politically and economically, are made at the centre and where sovereignty is completely residing at the centre whether that be parliament or a party or a dictator.


    I'm still not sure to what you're referring. Could you please elaborate?
    Little appreciation for the importance of small-scale associations like family, church, local community, region, guilds or other such communal occupational agencies, voluntary associations and such.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    I think you should look into Kropotkin, Bookchin and such, many of these want a more localised and regionalised economy.
    I have. Kropotkin's Mutual Aid is really good, and The Conquest of Bread is decent, but I don't think that any form of "decentralized" economy is realistic in any way. The planning and coordination of an entire global economy basically necessitates some kind of centralization - even capitalism centralizes economic coordination in the form of market forces (although this is more implicit centralization than explicit, as a planned economy would be). I've read some of Bookchin's stuff as well a long time ago, and found a lot of it to simply be "crap". I don't really know how else to describe it besides that; I've read other anarchist and "libertarian socialist" authors out there, but Bookchin is one of the worst.

    I know, Marx seems to have little appreciation of decentralism either but I don't think that one can get away from the fact that that Lenin and most Orthodox Marxism seems to be about giving quite a bit of scope, politically and economically, to the central state and cannot be said to have a deep appreciation of decentralism or a large role for such decentralist organisations unlike libertarian socialists.
    I think this has more to do with how "centralization" is defined than anything.

    For example, let us say that a bunch of decentralized communities send delegates to a congress which decides upon the administration of the economy. Is that centralized or decentralized to you?
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 05-13-09 at 11:43 AM.

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I have. Kropotkin's Mutual Aid is really good, and The Conquest of Bread is decent, but I don't think that any form of "decentralized" economy is realistic in any way. The planning and coordination of an entire global economy basically necessitates some kind of centralization - even capitalism centralizes economic coordination in the form of market forces (although this is more implicit centralization than explicit, as a planned economy would be). I've read some of Bookchin's stuff as well a long time ago, and found a lot of it to simply be "crap". I don't really know how else to describe it besides that; I've read other anarchist and "libertarian socialist" authors out there, but Bookchin is one of the worst.
    Ahh now we have moved into what is thought to be realistic. That is a rather different argument, what is correct though is that some anarchists at least do have ideas that don't require massive centralised planning and coordination. I don't think the likes of Kropotkin had much time for ideas about global economies, he talked of the need for regional self-sufficiency and such(which is something I believe in even if I'm not a socialist but distributist.).

    I have only read a small selection of Bookchin myself, his attack on individualism in the liberal meaning was quite interesting.
    I think this has more to do with how "centralization" is defined than anything.

    For example, let us say that a bunch of decentralized communities send delegates to a congress which decides upon the administration of the economy. Is that centralized or decentralized to you?
    I think it depends upon the level of autonomy and scope of the communities and the small-scale associations within them.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Catman View Post
    It is time for a revolution down yonder. Chavez is really a dictator in every sense of the word.
    I've been saying that since his sorry monkey ass got elected.

    Chavez is a turd that needs to be pinched off and flushed.

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    I've been saying that since his sorry monkey ass got elected.
    Yes but seeing as you seem to want to invade half the world, it is hard for us anyone to spend too much time on each individual invasion suggestion you come with.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Yes but seeing as you seem to want to invade half the world, it is hard for us anyone to spend too much time on each individual invasion suggestion you come with.
    I'm sorry that you having got the stomach to do what needs to be done.

    Chavez is nothing but a third world dicator. He needs to be diposed. He needs to be repalced with a governing official that is subject to a term limit.

    He needs to be replaced by a leader who will not steal assets from private citizens.

    If you cannot see the problem he poses, you sir, are the one with the issue.

    Also ...

    Khayembii Communique

    Brown-nosing is undignified. You should be ashamed of yourself.

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Also ...

    Khayembii Communique

    Brown-nosing is undignified. You should be ashamed of yourself.
    What are you going on about now?

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