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Thread: Chavez seizes oil service firms

  1. #61
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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    First off, Triad, I just want to let you know that I am only responding to parts of your post because, as I told HG earlier in the thread, I haven't had the time to follow Venezuelan politics lately and also don't have much time to do any indepth research in constructing a response. I'm planning on returning to this thread when I have time to respond to everything I miss.

    Which part of Venezuelan political reality does Chavez's party not hold control of?
    Parliament?
    Police?
    Courts?
    Military?
    Executive?
    Which one?
    ...the answer is none. He controls all of them.
    There are various opposition judges that are still presiding over numerous courts. Also, there are opposition members within the parliament as well, obviously. In terms of the police, I haven't seen any information to support the assertion that they are all pro-Chavez, or that the leadership is completely pro-Chavez. I'll get some sources for you later.

    Who said they where inciting a revolt again?..Chavez. They are also not the only media that has been silenced or intimidated.
    There is video footage from RCTV in the documentary The Revolution Will Not Be Televised that shows the station's complicity in the coup against Chavez.

    ..and now he is going after another one.
    This is a very strange article. McClatchy is usually pretty reputable, but unfortunately I cannot find any information regarding this issue outside of Mr. Bridges' article. As for Globovision being the sole television channel that regularly criticizes him, that's simply not true. It might be true that it is the only network TV channel that criticizes him, but that doesn't really matter, considering the fact that there are cable/satellite stations that regularly criticize him (RCTV being the most obvious).

    As for the issue of the Caracas mayor, I will have to look into that further and respond later.

    This article, though, doesn't seem very reliable. It's factually inaccurate in some places (one example I pointed out above), and seems to be incredibly biased against Chavez. It doesn't seem to be a very high quality piece of journalism; looking through Mr. Bridges' other articles, it seems that this is the norm for him. Until I can find a more objective, or at least a more informative, source I am going to have to call bull****.

    I'll respond to the rest later when I have time.

    I'm not so sure Agna likes me to much, but I get a long with Khayembii pretty well.
    I understand why they want their style of government and I think its very noble of them, I just don't think it will deliver like it says on paper.
    Meh, I think you have a very narrow and pessimistic view of human consciousness, and look at it in a very static and rigid way, when in reality it is incredibly dynamic and evolutionary.

    You could use a good reading of Marx.

  2. #62
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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    I wonder if chavez can make the trains run on time? Mussolini did......
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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    It never was.
    You partially missed my point.
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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Generally I think they are very intelligent and well read people.

    I'm not so sure Agna likes me to much, but I get a long with Khayembii pretty well.
    I understand why they want their style of government and I think its very noble of them, I just don't think it will deliver like it says on paper.
    Well I'm pretty sure Khayembii is a Trotskyist, which is not really libertarian socialism. But I agree with the first bit and I think you are right in the last bit about Trotyskism. I'm not sure about libertarian socialism.
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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    How long before Obama seizes our oil firms; he's got the banks and auto companies?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Well I'm pretty sure Khayembii is a Trotskyist, which is not really libertarian socialism. But I agree with the first bit and I think you are right in the last bit about Trotyskism. I'm not sure about libertarian socialism.
    "Libertarian socialism" is a pretty subjective definition; I've only really heard it used by anarchists and anarcho-communists to describe themselves. I've actually never heard a real definition of it, aside from it being the antithesis to "authoritarian Leninism" which I don't really think exists.

    As for your comments regarding Trotskyism, how would they apply to Marxism and not "libertarian socialism"?

    How long before Obama seizes our oil firms; he's got the banks and auto companies?
    The oil firms aren't in any sort of trouble, last time I checked.

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    The oil firms aren't in any sort of trouble, last time I checked.
    They will be as a result of lower oil prices and Obama's much stated policy desires toward them.

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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    "Libertarian socialism" is a pretty subjective definition; I've only really heard it used by anarchists and anarcho-communists to describe themselves. I've actually never heard a real definition of it, aside from it being the antithesis to "authoritarian Leninism" which I don't really think exists.
    It isn't too subjective but that doesn't mean it is simple.

    It is more than anarchists, it is involves guild socialists, platformists, even libertarian Marxists like council communists and such.

    It is pretty much a kind of socialism based around decentralised, often pluralist ideas about how to organise society and the economy and how to bring about revolution. It is suspicious of centralisation, the state and in many forms, except perhaps the more Marxist, monism even of a decentralised form.

    These too me are missing from Trotskyism although I'm no expert. It is a not quite like Leninism but it has a bigger role for the centralised state combined with the usual Marxist monism.

    As for your comments regarding Trotskyism, how would they apply to Marxism and not "libertarian socialism"?
    Huh?
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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    "Libertarian socialism" is a pretty subjective definition; I've only really heard it used by anarchists and anarcho-communists to describe themselves. I've actually never heard a real definition of it, aside from it being the antithesis to "authoritarian Leninism" which I don't really think exists.

    As for your comments regarding Trotskyism, how would they apply to Marxism and not "libertarian socialism"?



    The oil firms aren't in any sort of trouble, last time I checked.
    Yeah, but they're Big Oil.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  10. #70
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    Re: Chavez seizes oil service firms

    It isn't too subjective but that doesn't mean it is simple.

    It is more than anarchists, it is involves guild socialists, platformists, even libertarian Marxists like council communists and such.
    So basically "anti-Leninists".

    It is pretty much a kind of socialism based around decentralised, often pluralist ideas about how to organise society and the economy and how to bring about revolution. It is suspicious of centralisation, the state and in many forms, except perhaps the more Marxist, monism even of a decentralised form.
    I never understood this obsession with either anti-authoritarianism or decentralization. Any form of economic planning is going to have to take place in a centralized manner, whether that is through a single economic authority or through the cooperation and coordination of individual communities into a centralized body. It has to be planned in some centralized way.

    As for political centralization, this is pretty much irrelevant to the distinction between "Leninists" and "libertarian socialists". The charge is commonly leveled against "Leninists" that they want to create a centralized state apparatus that rules over society for the purpose of managing the transition; it is essentially a charge of Blanqui'ism, and that is simply ridiculous. There is a reason that power was given to the Soviets following the Bolshevik seizure of power.

    These too me are missing from Trotskyism although I'm no expert. It is a not quite like Leninism but it has a bigger role for the centralised state combined with the usual Marxist monism.
    What do you mean by "Marxist monism"?

    Yeah, but they're Big Oil.
    What?

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