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Thread: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

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    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    Oh, I'm sure they'll find plenty to whine about, same as the partisan Bush haters did the last 8 years.
    Except that there was so much to hate about the Bush years that we don't have to "find" things to complain about... basically it went like this - Bush got up in the morning again and did a bunch of really stupid **** and then went to bed. Rinse repeat for 8 years.

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    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Wouldn't that eliminate the savings for being in a larger buying pool that employers get buying insurance for employees, leading to higher costs for most people?
    There would be nothing stopping buying groups from popping up that you could join if you liked. There are already a lot of them even under the current system.

    Do you think it would be better if employers paid for car and home insurance for their employees and the government provided it for old and poor people? If so, why stop at insurance? Why not food, housing, etc, etc?

    Having the employer actually paying causes the incentives to be wrong. The employer needs to hold their costs down so they go with the lowest cost solution they can get and still attract employees. People accept jobs either knowing the terms or being too stupid to understand them. They then start complaining about the coverage and the government comes along and mandates coverages. That boosts the cost for everyone even those that do not want or need those coverages.

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    Why so serious?

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    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Except that there was so much to hate about the Bush years that we don't have to "find" things to complain about... basically it went like this - Bush got up in the morning again and did a bunch of really stupid **** and then went to bed. Rinse repeat for 8 years.
    Thanks for proving my point.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

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    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Except that there was so much to hate about the Bush years that we don't have to "find" things to complain about... basically it went like this - Bush got up in the morning again and did a bunch of really stupid **** and then went to bed. Rinse repeat for 8 years.
    BDS is such a terrible disese. Its too bad it's not curable and the symptoms cannot even be ameliorated. Relief comes only with death. Sad, so sad.

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  5. #45
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    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    There would be nothing stopping buying groups from popping up that you could join if you liked. There are already a lot of them even under the current system.

    Do you think it would be better if employers paid for car and home insurance for their employees and the government provided it for old and poor people? If so, why stop at insurance? Why not food, housing, etc, etc?

    Having the employer actually paying causes the incentives to be wrong. The employer needs to hold their costs down so they go with the lowest cost solution they can get and still attract employees. People accept jobs either knowing the terms or being too stupid to understand them. They then start complaining about the coverage and the government comes along and mandates coverages. That boosts the cost for everyone even those that do not want or need those coverages.

    .
    I think that if employees negotiate for and get employers to pay their car or home insurance, that is fine. I doubt very much that will happen, but I do not see an inherent problem with it. It's not up to me to tell people at different workplaces how and what their compensation packages should be like.

    Me personally, I have never had a problem with employee provided insurance. The times I have needed health care, I was able to use the doctor I wanted(Dr. Van Gelder is a great guy, very very Dutch), I paid my copay, and later got a bill for uncovered part, with a clear statement as to why I owed it. I admit your argument as to why employer paid insurance is bad is pretty compelling, but so far have not seen those negatives myself.

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    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I think that if employees negotiate for and get employers to pay their car or home insurance, that is fine. I doubt very much that will happen, but I do not see an inherent problem with it. It's not up to me to tell people at different workplaces how and what their compensation packages should be like.

    Me personally, I have never had a problem with employee provided insurance. The times I have needed health care, I was able to use the doctor I wanted(Dr. Van Gelder is a great guy, very very Dutch), I paid my copay, and later got a bill for uncovered part, with a clear statement as to why I owed it. I admit your argument as to why employer paid insurance is bad is pretty compelling, but so far have not seen those negatives myself.
    The problem is the one-size-fits-all approach. For example, all female employees do not want or need OB coverage, but in employer paid plans, the government mandates it and someone has to pay for it and this is only one of the many mandates.

    Like I said, I cannot get into this too deep so I better back out of this discussion.

    Thanks.


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    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Except that there was so much to hate about the Bush years that we don't have to "find" things to complain about... basically it went like this - Bush got up in the morning again and did a bunch of really stupid **** and then went to bed. Rinse repeat for 8 years.
    Sounds just like you.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Except that there was so much to hate about the Bush years that we don't have to "find" things to complain about... basically it went like this - Bush got up in the morning again and did a bunch of really stupid **** and then went to bed. Rinse repeat for 8 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    Thanks for proving my point.
    Precisely, Moon. Left or right. Same flavor, same old song and dance.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I believe, when left to their own devices, people will make the choice best suited for themselves.
    Then you have a whole lot more faith in humanity than has been proven time and again. I believe that when left to their own devices, people will make the choices that are most self-indulgent without regard for how these choices may impact anyone or anything else.

    Government will make the best choice for the politicians in power, thus should never be trusted on issues of a personal nature.
    Since government is mostly run by politicians, I agree with this for the most part.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #50
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    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon
    I read an article a few years back while sitting in a doctor's office, strangely enough, that talked about some doctors who refused to accept patients using insurance. They were cash only practices. IIRC, an office visit was $10, and routine lab work was about $25 or $30. These doctors found that without all the overhead to process insurance claims, they could provide the same level of care for a lower price.
    I've read about this before, but haven't looked at it in a while. Of course I found a lot of information, so I'll just touch on a little for now.

    I found a lot of 'we lowered our fees X%', but didn't get more specific than that i.e...a dollar amount.

    I also found a lot of what I already knew about the sea of paperwork. This is primarily why I am in favor of a single payer insurance
    Six years ago, Cherewatenko was drowning in paperwork and red ink, accepting more than 300 different insurance plans with 7,500 different medical codes.
    [...]
    “We were losing $80,000 a month. We were inundated with paperwork.
    [...]
    “We have lowered our fees anywhere from 30 percent to 50 percent on some of our services which is incredible,” he says. “And it’s really charging less and making more.”

    Doctors launch cash-only practices - Nightly News with Brian Williams- msnbc.com
    This Doctor's Professional fees vary from 'very simple' ($40) to 'complex' ($100)
    Not bad.

    Home


    I found this website and is more in tune to what I was looking for (comparative shopping, albeit a little skimpy) it is currently only for the state of Washington.

    PriceDoc - Better Price + Better Healthcare.

    I put in a Seattle zip code and searched for a GP and a Specialist office visit.

    General Practitioner:
    Office Visit/Consultation Procedures...around $120

    Endocrinologist:
    Office Visit/Consultation...$199

    For me and the relatively healthy that visit a doctor maybe two or three times a year that's still not too bad...IF and that's a big IF...insurance companies reflect their savings of not paying for that office visit, back to the consumer.

    Then you will still have the problems with people who aren't as healthy or whose dependents aren't and require more frequent visits and don't have an overabundance of income. To a low income family, two office visits a month at a co-pay of $20 each is a lot easier to handle than two cash payments at $120 each. Now if the monthly insurance premium savings would offset that $200 difference that would be a different story.

    If doctors are going to save a lot of money on paperwork by going to an all cash practice, how much are they going to have to spend on market-based medicine? They are going to need to be prepared to prove that their quality, service, and prices are better than those of their competitors. They're going to have to advertise. Todays patients haven't had to compare shop doctors before. They're going to have to be educated in the nuances of making buying decisions regarding healthcare.
    “We just simply don’t know how to govern” - Rep. Steve Womack (R-AR) a member of the House Budget Committee

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