Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 50

Thread: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

  1. #31
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,711

    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    It's a very serious issue. Obama is going to push for a program that is going to cost upwards of 1,000,000,000,000.00 just to get started. How can anyone in their right mind believe that the cost will not end up being much higher?

    And it's really not justifiable to do.

    Is that hyper partisan CC? Hmm? Is that an "extremist" point of view?
    No, it's not. You addressed the issue intelligently and positionally.

    You're learning.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  2. #32
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 08:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,711

    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    I agree, and since no plan has been publicly proposed, why is funding being requested in the budget? I'm afraid this will end up like most government programs and cost 10x as much as projected, and provide 1/4 of what was promised. Any plan needs to be presented to the public and debated forthwith.
    See? Now this I agree with. I would not want to pay for a plan as far reaching as this, without knowing what that plan is. Just like those conservatives that are being silly about attacking something that does not exist, yet, liberals that want to pay for something that doesn't exist yet are being just as silly. All of this is presumptuous.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #33
    Why so serious?

    Moon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Washington State
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,291

    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    At a guess, and this is just a guess, he had a skeletal outline of a plan, and this was the approximate amount that plan assumed. Any big plan will evolve over time. My big hope is that Obama takes the time needed to do things right, and rethinks his rush to do things like this. I agree health care reform is needed, I just don't think the next two years are the time to do it.
    Health care needs to be reformed by getting the insurance companies and the government out of it and letting the competitiveness of the market force costs lower. In Moon's perfect world, people would carry insurance for serious things like cancer, hospitals stays, surgery, etc., and pay for routine office visits and lab work out of their own pocket.

    I read an article a few years back while sitting in a doctor's office, strangely enough, that talked about some doctors who refused to accept patients using insurance. They were cash only practices. IIRC, an office visit was $10, and routine lab work was about $25 or $30. These doctors found that without all the overhead to process insurance claims, they could provide the same level of care for a lower price.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

  4. #34
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:00 AM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,328
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    Health care needs to be reformed by getting the insurance companies and the government out of it and letting the competitiveness of the market force costs lower. In Moon's perfect world, people would carry insurance for serious things like cancer, hospitals stays, surgery, etc., and pay for routine office visits and lab work out of their own pocket.

    I read an article a few years back while sitting in a doctor's office, strangely enough, that talked about some doctors who refused to accept patients using insurance. They were cash only practices. IIRC, an office visit was $10, and routine lab work was about $25 or $30. These doctors found that without all the overhead to process insurance claims, they could provide the same level of care for a lower price.
    I disagree that letting the market force fix things will work. It might provide a small improvement, but not to the level I think really is needed.

    Lowering overhead costs can be done without removing insurance companies, simply by streamlining the process, which is badly needed.

  5. #35
    Why so serious?

    Moon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Washington State
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,291

    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I disagree that letting the market force fix things will work. It might provide a small improvement, but not to the level I think really is needed.

    Lowering overhead costs can be done without removing insurance companies, simply by streamlining the process, which is badly needed.
    processing insurance claims is a huge part of the overhead, and since your insurance company generally dictates which doctors they will cover, it eliminates any streamlining that competition would force. Our current system sucks, and no minor fiddling is going to fix it. The insurance companies are a big part of the problem.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

  6. #36
    Guru

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:01 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,469

    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    Health care needs to be reformed by getting the insurance companies and the government out of it and letting the competitiveness of the market force costs lower. In Moon's perfect world, people would carry insurance for serious things like cancer, hospitals stays, surgery, etc., and pay for routine office visits and lab work out of their own pocket.

    I read an article a few years back while sitting in a doctor's office, strangely enough, that talked about some doctors who refused to accept patients using insurance. They were cash only practices. IIRC, an office visit was $10, and routine lab work was about $25 or $30. These doctors found that without all the overhead to process insurance claims, they could provide the same level of care for a lower price.
    I cannot get into the main topic of this discussion due to NDAs, but the bolded phrase caught my eye. Are you for doing away all insurance such as auto and house or is it restricted to health?

    IMO, the problem is employer paid insurance and CMS. If the consumer was selecting and paying for their own insurance and the government would get out of the mandate business the individual could select what coverage they wanted and there would be competetion for that business.


    .

  7. #37
    Why so serious?

    Moon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Washington State
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    4,291

    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    I cannot get into the main topic of this discussion due to NDAs, but the bolded phrase caught my eye. Are you for doing away all insurance such as auto and house or is it restricted to health?
    Health insurance was what I was talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    IMO, the problem is employer paid insurance and CMS. If the consumer was selecting and paying for their own insurance and the government would get out of the mandate business the individual could select what coverage they wanted and there would be competetion for that business.

    .
    I agree.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

  8. #38
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:00 AM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,328
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by TOJ View Post
    IMO, the problem is employer paid insurance and CMS. If the consumer was selecting and paying for their own insurance and the government would get out of the mandate business the individual could select what coverage they wanted and there would be competetion for that business.
    Wouldn't that eliminate the savings for being in a larger buying pool that employers get buying insurance for employees, leading to higher costs for most people?

  9. #39
    Sage
    Renae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    San Antonio Texas
    Last Seen
    10-23-17 @ 10:14 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    38,972
    Blog Entries
    15

    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    I believe, when left to their own devices, people will make the choice best suited for themselves.

    Government will make the best choice for the politicians in power, thus should never be trusted on issues of a personal nature.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  10. #40
    Sage
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    08-27-09 @ 08:41 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,344

    Re: Upfront costs complicate Obama’s health care plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I disagree that letting the market force fix things will work. It might provide a small improvement, but not to the level I think really is needed.

    Lowering overhead costs can be done without removing insurance companies, simply by streamlining the process, which is badly needed.
    Market forces would unquestionably lower costs. The simple economic reality that most people cannot pay for their own routine healthcare out of their own pocket is sufficient to ensure that market forces would quickly and dramatically slash healthcare costs across the board. That market forces would lower costs is not a major question in healthcare debate.

    What is a major question is that of "who pays?" Dear Leader wants the government to pay through tax dollars--that $684Billion will not come out of thin air, and will be the result either of tax dollars or Helicopter Ben Bernanke and his magical printing presses. Hillary Clinton wanted to force everyone to buy health insurance. John McCain had a much underappreciated notion of providing a tax incentive for people to buy their own health insurance, resulting in the ending of health insurance as an employee benefit.

    The problem with government-paid healthcare as well as health insurance as it currently is offered it that it is a perversity of everyone paying for someone else's healthcare. It isolates the patient from the full pricing information necessary to make effective economic decisions about healthcare. In effect, patients are denied the full opportunity to choose for themselves how they wish to provide for their own health and well being--and the consequences of this reach much farther than mere dollars and cents.

    Consider, for a moment, this interesting comment on prostate cancer treatments:

    Because of these side effects, some men, especially some older men, may decide that the cure is worse than the disease. Studies show that some men are willing to accept the risk of a shorter life span in return for a better quality of life than what they would have with treatment.
    The significance of this comment is that it begs the question of how do we determine what treatments are "necessary" for a given condition. Is a better quality of life obtained from longer life despite numerous expensive medical procedures? Or could a better quality of life be obtained by spending the money otherwise paid out for such treatments on other, more pleasant things, even though a shorter lifespan might be among the ultimate outcomes? Is prevention and a focus on healthy living preferable to treatment and remediation after the fact? Who is best situated to make such determinations if not the patient. What is the best use of that patient's resources for that patient's overall life?

    The challenge of that position as a matter of healthcare policy is that it compels us to confront mortality directly. In government and in our individual lives we are compelled to ponder at what point should nature be allowed to take its course with the catastrophically injured or disastrously ill? If there is no insurance, no safety net, what happens when someone is the victim of a car accident through no fault of their own? Are we willing to consider the possibility that some conditions and some diseases are, in fact, "too expensive" to cure?

    Thus, the drawback of imposing market forces is not that it will not have any impact, or will have only modest impact, but, to the contrary, that it will have traumatic impact--that at least in the immediate aftermath of such a transition many life-or-death decisions will be made solely on the depth of the pocketbook, which outcome is decidedly at odds with normal perceptions of social justice and fairness, while the disruptions and dislocations of such a transition would put some patients at risk of not having vital treatment and testing services available when they are needed.

    If the imposition of market forces were merely a question of efficiency and cost control, there would be no argument of substance to the contrary. In a free market environment, every person would be assured of having access to all the medical care they were willing and able to pay for. As a matter of cost containment and systemic efficiency, the free market wins every time.

    However, the challenge of the free market is not merely about cost, but also about what should be the governing philosophy of health care. Should there be guaranteed treatments and few resultant treatment choices? Should there be no guarantees and maximum treatment choices? What is more meaningful, the choices of the individual or the preferences of the collective?

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •