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Thread: Pope in Jordan, begins ME tour

  1. #11
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    Re: Pope in Jordan, begins ME tour

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Im no expert on Islam, and i cant name the 5 pillars of your religion. But im also not willing to buy the fact that Islam is an evil religion. Otherwise a large proportion of the worlds population wouldnt turn to it as there way of life. But i do know its possible for muslims to practise secularism. Ataturk taught Turkey. An enlightened mind can teach the arabs in the ME.
    I agree, but we have no one to enlighten the Muslim world unfortunately.
    I heard Turkey's military is very secular and ensure it is upheld. Muslims armies are probably the opposite.

    But nvm, can you lend us some of your secular politicans?


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    Re: Pope in Jordan, begins ME tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    I agree, but we have no one to enlighten the Muslim world unfortunately.
    I heard Turkey's military is very secular and ensure it is upheld. Muslims armies are probably the opposite.

    But nvm, can you lend us some of your secular politicans?
    Sure, all of our republicans are secular, but the current ruling party, the Justice and Development party, regardless of there huge reforms to join the EU bloc, insist on being slightly muslim orientated secretely (hence the crazy rage PM Erdogan went into at Israel in Davos, the fool). Regardless Laila, look at mankinds past. You will notice a pattern. In times of great desperation and misery, a leader is formed. And usually, that leader is for the best. Its desperate times for the muslims, and its only a matter of time before somebody will step up to the platform and make the changes the Arabs have been waiting for.

    Ataturk needed to make sure that when he was dead and gone, his ideals for secularism would stay. He knew if an unsecular leader was to take his place after his time, they would have the power to change the country back into its ottoman-era days (they where very religiously tolerant the Ottomans, but not secular). He knew if the people we're to revolt to protect his ideology, they would fail and be defeated by the state. So he built up the army and made it very powerful in Turkey. He used the military to keep secularism in place, and gave them a powerful say in politics (not enough to distort a democracy, but enough to ensure that Turkeys politics will always remain secular). And till this day, it continues (though the military have more power than originally wanted. This does not account for todays Turkey, because of the constitutional reforms for the EU). The military have over-thrown at least half a dozen governments since his death in 1938, in the name of secularism (part of the constitution). The constitional court has banned at least 5 ruling governments. The AKP (Justice and development party), the current leaders, also escaped a narrow closure last year for anti-secular activities (Erdogan has a criminal record for trying to sabotage politics and the constitution).

    The Arab countries can use his example as a beacon of hope. A final, last chance for saving there people and boarders from secretarian violance. I know it is possible. The army is a powerful institution to have and can be manipulated to ensure a country stays secular. The Ayatollah in Iran used a similiar approach. When the Shah was overthrown, he had the people on his side, but he also changed the constitution so that there must be a President in Iran but a supreme leader (the Ayatollah) too, to ensure Iran stays an Islamic nation after and beyond his death. Obviously this example is the opposite of what i advocate, but the Arabs have shown they can establish and keep Islamic countries going strong many years after there founding. Which begs the question, do they even want to be secular? Maybe if they tasted the freedom that we have here, just once, they would want it to stay?
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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    Re: Pope in Jordan, begins ME tour

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Which begs the question, do they even want to be secular? Maybe if they tasted the freedom that we have here, just once, they would want it to stay?
    I'm not sure i am comfortable in giving armes power to overthrow Governments and banning of parties. Hardly democratic imo.

    I doubt it.
    Cultural difference.
    They may want democratic laws and polls have shown this but they do not want Islam basically eradicated in many aspects of their lives.
    You can be free without resorting to the same tactics Turkey does to ensure it stays secular


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    Re: Pope in Jordan, begins ME tour

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    I'm not sure i am comfortable in giving armes power to overthrow Governments and banning of parties. Hardly democratic imo.

    I doubt it.
    Cultural difference.
    They may want democratic laws and polls have shown this but they do not want Islam basically eradicated in many aspects of their lives.
    You can be free without resorting to the same tactics Turkey does to ensure it stays secular
    Well Turkey cannot resort to those tactics any longer, unless the constitutional courts see that the government is violating the constitution repeatedly. Its very undemocratic, your right. But anything is better than the mess the arabs have got themselves into.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
    > Good to be back, but I'm only visiting for a few weeks. <

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