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Thread: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Zyphilin, I have a question.

    I have been informed that, under the Patriot Act:
    1. The President or Atty Gen can, by signing the appropriate form, declare an individual to be an "enemy combatant". No evidence is required, just that signature on that form.
    2. Having been so declared, the individual (even if a US citizen) may be taken into custody, held without charges, without a lawyer, without phone calls, etc indefinately.

    Is this correct?

    G.
    I heard this as well, however during the course of searching for things for my Senior Thesis I never once came upon a direct reference to this long stated "issue" with the Patriot Act, even from extremely critical sources including the ACLU.

    The closest I saw to something like this was the redefinition of what constituted a "terrorist", which in pure theory I didn't have an issue with the definition, but in practice I thought it was FAR to broad and theoretically one could be considered a "terrorist" under a STRICT reading of the section if you were disturbing the peace while at a political protest. I'll come back to this and update with what section it is in particular once I can look back at my Thesis.

    Now, I'm not saying this provision is not found within the Patriot Act, it may very well be. I've read a large portion of the Act but the thing is gigantic and in many places a mish mash of legal terms and simple small adendums to entirely separate laws. I focused most specifically on the sections that were most routinely brought up as problematic by its critics.

    Sorry I couldn't give you anything more specific. If you find or have an article talking about it that gives some reference to where abouts in the Act to look I'd gladly research it. However, at the time of my thesis (which was a few years ago; thankfully some things have been stripped out since then or sunset) that was a popular "complaint" typically found in political circles and message boards but one I never found within a legitimized source critiquing and criticizing the Act.

  2. #22
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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    One bone of contention. While Republicans may've "cooked it up", Democrats were complicite in its passing.
    Yeah, there's a shocker. The status quo voting to increase the power of government.

    I think in the end, the PA should be scrapped. We could do better with just making some things within the already establish bureaucracy faster without allowing such questionable legislation like the PA into existence. There may be "parts" that are ok (don't really buy it, I don't think the PA was necessary and the name alone makes me think it's nothing but propaganda and government expansion), but if there are any questionable parts, the whole of it needs to be chucked. Let's say what happened here turns out to be true and more. The boy did nothing wrong, the government overreacted, used the PA to deny this boy his rights and access to council, trial, etc. That alone, even if it were the only abuse, is enough to say the PA should be scrapped. Under no condition should the government be able to act like that against its own citizens and doing it once shows that they are willing to do it should it fit there needs.

    There was some time ago an audit of the FBI and their use of warrantless searches and such and they found HUGE abuse. Government when it gets power, especially power it shouldn't have, will abuse it. Guaranteed. You can bet your bottom dollar on it, it will happen every time. Maybe not right off the bat, but it will be abused as much as the government can get away with it. It's why we are to distrust the government, constrain the government, restrict how it can act especially as it relates to the rights and liberties of the individual. The PA, the Real ID Act, all that crap needs to be scrapped. ASAP.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Government when it gets power, especially power it shouldn't have, will abuse it. Guaranteed. You can bet your bottom dollar on it, it will happen every time. Maybe not right off the bat, but it will be abused as much as the government can get away with it. It's why we are to distrust the government, constrain the government, restrict how it can act especially as it relates to the rights and liberties of the individual. The PA, the Real ID Act, all that crap needs to be scrapped. ASAP.

    Bing. Nail on the head. Practically self-evident, even, and the reason I was never happy about the PA from the first I heard about it.

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    It would be idiotic to scrap the entire Patriot. Absolutely patently idiotic. The ONLY way I could even remotely agree with that was if:

    There was a 95% likely chance that the 90%+ of it that is good, necessary, useful updates to the intelligence laws on the books would be voted back in immediately

    OR

    People pushing for it ALSO are pushing for the entire FISA legislation to be overturned and scrapped AND that TITLE III of the OMNIBUS Crime Control and Safe Streets Act is also over turned and scraped.

    Its foolish and absolutely fool hearty to try and use FOURTY year old intelligence law to try to determine how law enforcement should go forward with such things in a world with technology that wasn't even DREAMED of by most people at that point in time. The amount of loop holes and grey areas in the law at that time that could be manipulated by BOTH sides was FAR to large.

    This idiotic notion that we need to scrap a law because there's a potential for abuse with a portion of it is beyond me. Shall we get rid of the entire federal law enforcement completely? Because having it opens us up to abuse. Get rid of it. All of it. Right? I'm sure you're for that ikari? Actually, get rid of the military why we're at it. The military can be open to abuse by the government so we should get rid of it. If the FBI, without the Patriot, did this would you say "Scrap the FBI"? How do you pick and choose what emotional over reacting scape goat you want to choose Ikari?

    This idiotic ignorant scare tacting on the part of most people, especially people who 9 out of 10 times do NOTHING but parrot talking points from whatever political websites and sources they choose that are directly in line with their thinking without EVER giving a legitimate attempt to view the information from the other side and get actual REALISTIC fact, is more offensive to me than the act itself by a large margin as its people acting purely and fully off faulty or extremely biased information and emotion and nothing more.

    How things are working with the Patriot Act is the correct way it should be done, is the best way it should be done, and is how it should continue. The only change I would suggest would be to possibly push for it to go faster which would mean pressure for people on their members of Congress to push for them to pass laws editing the questionable portions. But what Ikari is suggesting is the political equivalent of removing an entire arm because there's a problem with the tip of the finger.

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    How exactly has the Patriot Act had a real positive impact on the nation? I agree that it does contain useful laws that should be keep, but what exactly is so important about it that we should accept its suppression of civil rights? Being able to hold U.S. citizens without trial is far more dangerous than the minor benefits that the patriot act brings.

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    How exactly has the Patriot Act had a real positive impact on the nation? I agree that it does contain useful laws that should be keep, but what exactly is so important about it that we should accept its suppression of civil rights? Being able to hold U.S. citizens without trial is far more dangerous than the minor benefits that the patriot act brings.
    You're not thinking about the potential terrorists it could nab.

    One of my friend's fathers has been in jail for 5 years because of this. No trial, and they still haven't told him what they're charging him with. He is a naturalized citizen in this country.. being denied the rights he earned by coming here legally.
    George Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to win the war with Britain... He shot them.

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    On a related note, when are the democrats going to repeal the patriot act? Something I would actually congratualte them for. I keep hearing "The republicans! The republicans! Bush and the republicans! Oh Christ! Bloody MURDUR!" Ok, I get it, like I haven't heard that for last 8 years . Are you dems going to quit your whining actually do something about the PA? OH yea, that's right, you guys don't dominate the House and the Senate and have the presidency. Oh, oops, yea you do. It's been 100 days, are you dems going to repeal it or no? And if so, when?

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    On a related note, when are the democrats going to repeal the patriot act? Something I would actually congratualte them for. I keep hearing "The republicans! The republicans! Bush and the republicans! Oh Christ! Bloody MURDUR!" Ok, I get it, like I haven't heard that for last 8 years . Are you dems going to quit your whining actually do something about the PA? OH yea, that's right, you guys don't dominate the House and the Senate and have the presidency. Oh, oops, yea you do. It's been 100 days, are you dems going to repeal it or no? And if so, when?
    The Patriot act has to be reauthorized by congress every so many years. It was reauthorized in 2005 by both the house and senate. Senator Obama voted to reauthorize it.

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Could democrats not be attempting to scrap the entire thing of it because even an extremely well known liberal such as Fiengold has come out and said publicly that the vast majority, 90%, of the act is solid, useful, needed law and this was years ago before some of the questionable things have been taken out of it.

    The democrats failure is not pushing harder to strip out pieces of it that are problematic, not scrapping the whole thing.

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    It would be idiotic to scrap the entire Patriot. Absolutely patently idiotic. The ONLY way I could even remotely agree with that was if:

    There was a 95% likely chance that the 90%+ of it that is good, necessary, useful updates to the intelligence laws on the books would be voted back in immediately

    OR

    People pushing for it ALSO are pushing for the entire FISA legislation to be overturned and scrapped AND that TITLE III of the OMNIBUS Crime Control and Safe Streets Act is also over turned and scraped.

    Its foolish and absolutely fool hearty to try and use FOURTY year old intelligence law to try to determine how law enforcement should go forward with such things in a world with technology that wasn't even DREAMED of by most people at that point in time. The amount of loop holes and grey areas in the law at that time that could be manipulated by BOTH sides was FAR to large.

    This idiotic notion that we need to scrap a law because there's a potential for abuse with a portion of it is beyond me. Shall we get rid of the entire federal law enforcement completely? Because having it opens us up to abuse. Get rid of it. All of it. Right? I'm sure you're for that ikari? Actually, get rid of the military why we're at it. The military can be open to abuse by the government so we should get rid of it. If the FBI, without the Patriot, did this would you say "Scrap the FBI"? How do you pick and choose what emotional over reacting scape goat you want to choose Ikari?

    This idiotic ignorant scare tacting on the part of most people, especially people who 9 out of 10 times do NOTHING but parrot talking points from whatever political websites and sources they choose that are directly in line with their thinking without EVER giving a legitimate attempt to view the information from the other side and get actual REALISTIC fact, is more offensive to me than the act itself by a large margin as its people acting purely and fully off faulty or extremely biased information and emotion and nothing more.

    How things are working with the Patriot Act is the correct way it should be done, is the best way it should be done, and is how it should continue. The only change I would suggest would be to possibly push for it to go faster which would mean pressure for people on their members of Congress to push for them to pass laws editing the questionable portions. But what Ikari is suggesting is the political equivalent of removing an entire arm because there's a problem with the tip of the finger.
    I get it, I'm an idiot. Thanks for that great, insightful, and insult laden post. It did a lot to further the debate. Maybe I should retort with nothing but personal insults as well.

    Here's the thing. The PA needs to be scrapped in total. If you think there are good parts that need to be established, make a new damned bill. But the PA in its form is not good, it's too open, and apparently can and will be abused. Abused legislation must be taken away from the government. The government isn't this benevolent institution out there looking to bring us smiles and rainbows. It's a bureaucracy full of people who want to further their own power and because it wields the power and soveriegnty of the People, it must necessarily be constrained, restricted, and subject to multiple review. I'm not saying get rid of the arm because of the "tip of the finger" crap. I'm saying once government gets power it will abuse that power. If we excuse the abuse because "most of the bill is good" blah blah blah then we do nothing more than encourage that abuse. The PA is NOT a good bill OBVIOUSLY because it can and has been abused. That makes it not a good bill on the whole. Once it is abused, it must be taken away. Anything which must be given to the government can be given to it with severe restrictions and warnings attached.

    Furthermore, the majority of the proper functionality which came from the PA could be accomplished without the PA. There are many things which could be done. I'm not saying we do nothing, no matter what you'd like to distort my argument into to make yours easier. I'm saying we can only take proper action, however. And that we must be CAREFUL in what we allow the government to do and with the degrees of freedom we allow it to do it with. But that's idiotic, huh? Stupid according to you. Watch the government. BAH! Nothing but fear rhetoric, right? Cutting off the nose to spite the face. Blah blah blah, whatever you can say to deflect from the issue. Forget that the PA HAS BEEN ABUSED, it's ok; keep it. How is that intelligent? What needed to be done could have easily been done without the PA. All the PA did was to authorize government with power it wasn't supposed to have; and that's far more dangerous than any terrorist could ever be. You want to know the idiotic ignorant scare tacting on the part of most people, especially people who 9 out of 10 times do NOTHING but parrot talking points from whatever political websites and sources they choose that are directly in line with their thinking without EVER giving a legitimate attempt to view the information from the other side and get actual REALISTIC fact is? It's this "terrorists are going to get us" line. It's "accept the expansion of government and the usurpation of your power as sovereigns because the terrorists are coming". That's the real source of ignorance in this Republic. People who think we have so much to fear from terrorists that we have to let government expand and take more and more power, excusing the abuses the entire way because "part of it is good". That's true ignorance right there.

    We had wiretaps which were abused by the FBI, that's measured. The audit showed in both pure number and percentage the sample having well too much abuse. The PA has been used at least once against its own citizen and that's too much. But it's stupid to watch out for that, huh? Idiotic and ignorant to lay blame towards the government when it abuses power...right? Don't question the government, it's here for us; Zyphlin would disagree with that. They'll protect us, and their usurpation of power shouldn't bother us. Move along, nothing to see here. What's idiotic is ignoring the warnings of the founders. What's stupid is absolute trust in the government. What's ignorant is the abdication of the duties and responsibilities of freemen, the abandonment of the never ending battle of freedom, and tuning one's back to the Republic in favor of oligopoly. Weak individuals who can't accept the responsibilities and consequences of freedom and liberty. Pathetic.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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