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Thread: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

  1. #11
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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'd say that teenage bomb threats warrant a visit from the cops, maybe not arrest. I'd rather them make sure the threat is credible first.

    But hey, this guys a terrorist and not giving information on his bombs. I say it's high time to waterboard this punk!
    Please link me to the information concerning the specifics of the bomb threats. How many, to where, what was said, etc. Please provide me links to the information concerning any search done into the supposed "stolen IP address". Please provide me links to any of the information concerning what facts they had to lead them to believe this kid was legitimately the one making these threads or not, and for what reason.

    I mean, you seem like you know all the facts of this case enough to say this kid is completely innocent of any crime, being completely and utterly mistreated, and the government is 100% wrong so I'm assuming you have facts to back this up rather than just seeing "OMFG THEY SAID PATRIOT ACT HANG'EM!"

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes, we don't have the full story. We have a one sided news story so far with the sources being the Mother of the child, who is understandably upset, and the Lawyer for said child whose duty is to protect him and fight for his innocence.

    They keep saying "The Patriot Act". Please, what section specifically? What heading are they siting for holding him. This is like saying someone is being held due to FISA. Its an dozens and dozens of pages Act with more new laws and changes to law that you can shake a stick at. If all you say is "The Patriot Act" how exactly is anyone even supposed to be able to check your story to see if its even legitimate or to know the FACTS about the case.

    Here are some facts.

    Lets see...

    The mother complained there were guns there...nothing to do with the Patriot Act

    Officers storming a house and arresting someone and presenting a SEARCH WARRANT...nothing to do with the Patriot Act.

    Making bomb threats is illegal, even if you can't actually MAKE the bombs...nothing to do with the Patriot Act.

    Gag Orders on federal cases are not the domain solely of the Patriot Act.

    While she can claim "Stealing IP" addresses, and that may very well be legitimate, there are NUMEROUS ways to check if such things are potentially true or not.

    I'm trying to remember which portion of the Act actually deals with potential hearings and the ability to hold people for extended times and I do hope the ACLU or his lawyer manages to review that as it is an issue if I remember correctly that needs to be addressed.

    However, I'm trying to do research on this kid and I'm coming up with Zero results. For something presumed to have happened I'm having issues with why there would be absolutely zero information out about it. If anyone has any links please direct me to them as I'd like to look into this more.

    So far, the woman and the media seems to be doing what's typical with the Patriot Act. Over exaggerating. "Because it falls under the Patriot act a lot of the usual rights don't apply here."

    Really? I see an issue perhaps with a speedy initial hearing. However, where's this "a lot", a lot implies more than even 2 or 3. I see one potential right. His arrest wasn't anything to do with the patriot act, the search was completely within the law as it wasn't even a "warrantless one" like so many people dislike, and his accused crime isn't even one created by the Patriot Act but was one around prior to that.

    Interested to find out more about this case and having a decent knowledge of the Act I'm going to hold judgement as this seems like very typical media hysteria, over exaggeration, hyperbole, and hyping up. Not to say there's not a legitimate case here, but much like the "183 waterboarding" story and the swine flu, it seems like in typical Media Fashion they've taken something that may be somewhat bad and trying to make it out to be this great giant thing when its not.
    Fair assessment. The bothersome part I found was that apparently this kid has been in jail for over two months with what is reported as minimal contact with parents. There isn't much to go on, because most everything is not being talked about by anyone from the government (which is kinda discomforting in the least, I'd say). The PA is brought up in terms of his trial and incarceration, which is the suspect part. It's reasonable to think that by this point, months later, a normal police investigation would have at least yielded some amount of information which could be shared with the public. It's odd then that after all this time there's no news of the case going forward, the child being offered bond, having proper contact with parents/lawyers, etc.

    So yes, we don't have all information; but there are things which don't quite add up here. American citizen in jail for more than 2 months, with no hearings or information of bond being set or denied, etc. There's something rotten in the state of Denmark.
    Last edited by Ikari; 05-06-09 at 06:59 PM.
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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Please link me to the information concerning the specifics of the bomb threats. How many, to where, what was said, etc. Please provide me links to the information concerning any search done into the supposed "stolen IP address". Please provide me links to any of the information concerning what facts they had to lead them to believe this kid was legitimately the one making these threads or not, and for what reason.

    I mean, you seem like you know all the facts of this case enough to say this kid is completely innocent of any crime, being completely and utterly mistreated, and the government is 100% wrong so I'm assuming you have facts to back this up rather than just seeing "OMFG THEY SAID PATRIOT ACT HANG'EM!"
    That's the problem, isn't it. Shouldn't there be some of these facts? Instead of a kid in jail for 2 months? Where are these facts? Fact is, American citizen in jail and there's no information. What does that lend one to believe? Maybe he is some criminal mastermind and the government has to keep quiet to build a case. Maybe the government overreacted and now a kid suffers. But in normal police investigations, in two months time some amount of info is put out there. And in that time people usually have at least bond hearings. In fact, I think they have to have bond hearings and such rather quickly; only through the deployment of something like the PA can that be delayed indefinitely. So where's the information on why he's being held? Aren't we supposed to be privy to that? What are the exact charges? What was bond, was it set or denied or was that held at all? Gag orders are fine, but the utter lack of movement and information seems pretty damned fishy.

    Fact is that it is the GOVERNMENT which must present the facts and prove their case, not the individual. Let's keep that in mind, and let's keep in mind that this is an American citizen so certain rights are to be provided, including right to speedy trial. The PA does away with that, council, trial, habeas corpus. There's enough here to suspect that something not quite right has gone down. The government has to prove its case, not the other way around...well maybe the PA gets rid of that restriction too.

    Also, the waterboarding things was mostly in jest. Learn to take a joke.
    Last edited by Ikari; 05-06-09 at 07:02 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    I found this. No new information really, but the news article from the local affiliate.

    Mom says Patriot Act stripped son of due process :: WRAL.com
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Fair assessment. The bothersome part I found was that apparently this kid has been in jail for over two months with what is reported as minimal contact with parents. There isn't much to go on, because most everything is not being talked about by anyone from the government (which is kinda discomforting in the least, I'd say).
    Which is due to....which section of the Patriot Act? I mean, is there ANY proof at all that is due to the Patriot Act and not just being said that way because it makes a more sensational story?

    Even then, how much contact does a person in prison typically have with someone outside? He's apparently not held near the house, which is troublesome but not something specific to the patriot act. Is the mom just simply not ALLOWED to go visit him, or is it too far away for constant visits. Is he allowed less phone calls to the outside world than other people in prison, or is it the same but they just don't mention this. I don't know these things and I can find any further information on the case to find out.

    The PA is brought up in terms of his trial and incarceration, which is the suspect part.
    Except its not. The PA is brought up in terms of the ENTIRE story. The ENTIRE story started off by talking about the Patriot stripping away "a lot" of this kids rights. It started off with it being under the Specter of the Patriot Act. I'd have little to no real issue with the story if they ended up doing the same story without the asinine opening and said "Now, 2 months later, he still hasn't had a trial due to, what his lawyer claims, a law found within the Patriot Act". That would've been the PA brought up in terms of his trial and incarceration...the story brought it up in context of the entire case.

    It's reasonable to think that by this point, months later, a normal police investigation would have at least yielded some amount of information which could be shared with the public.
    Are all FBI cases open to the public as they are being undergone, let alone every police case? To my knowledge, that's not the case and wasn't the case even before Patriot Act.

    Again, my issue is not stating that the kid is wrong in being upset with how things went down, my issue is with people seemingly just going "Oh its the Patriot Act" based on......well, next to nothing save for the Lawyer mentioning the Patriot Act.

    It's odd then that after all this time there's no news of the case going forward, the child being offered bond, having proper contact with parents/lawyers, etc.

    So yes, we don't have all information; but there are things which don't quite add up here. American citizen in jail for more than 2 months, with no hearings or information of bond being set or denied, etc. There's something rotten in the state of Denmark.
    Yes, something does seem odd. The difference is, you see that and immediately go "The Government has done wrong. The Patriot Act is Evil! Its the Patriot Act's fault!"

    I go "Hmm, that's odd. I'd like some more info. Its curious that there's no more information out on this because it either means there's absolutely ZERO coming out about the story or the story was overblown and thus its no longer on any news organization or bloggers radar".

    You immediately go the "Government is bad, patriot act is bad" route because it seems "odd", while I can see how it being "odd" that no more information has came out could literally go either way.

    I'm not saying the governments right, I'm not saying the kids guilty of ANYTHING, but I'm also not saying somehow this has been a giant abuse of "a lot" of his rights due specifically to the Patriot Act.

    Fact is that it is the GOVERNMENT which must present the facts and prove their case, not the individual.
    Indeed, and under the court of law he's presumed innocent until proven guilty.

    For individual citizens we're not required to keep that mindset, and I keep that mindset in part with the government as well. I do not label this kid guilty, but I also don't label the U.S. Government and the Patriot 100% guilty with no evidence either.

    Let's keep that in mind, and let's keep in mind that this is an American citizen so certain rights are to be provided, including right to speedy trial. The PA does away with that, council, trial, habeas corpus.
    Please point me to the section in the Patriot Act please. I'm very anxious to read the wording concerning this. Especially since he HAS council. And while it has been delayed there is a hearing set which means there has no been complete removal of habeas corpus from him yet. So, section please.

    And, as I already acknowledged in my initial point, there likely IS an issue with the Patriot Act here and if it ends up being the case I hope these guys win and I hope that section of it is stricken down, as it should be.

    My issue is the presentation of the news organization and the hysterical way people are reacting to it under the "spectre" of the Patriot Act. To me, not having a speedy trial is not an example of "A lot" of rights being lost and the majority of what's happened that we know about on this case has NOTHING to do with the PA.

    There's enough here to suspect that something not quite right has gone down. The government has to prove its case, not the other way around...well maybe the PA gets rid of that restriction too.
    I agree, some things look fishy here. To me, things are looking fishy on both sides. In regards to a rights violation in terms of a speedy trial I agree with you, and stated already. In regards to "a lot" of his other rights being violated SPECIFICALLY due to the Patriot Act, I've seen ZERO evidence to even lead me to assuming it. The ONLY way for me to assume it is if I'm simply LOOKING for a reason to complain and degrade the Patriot Act and thus whenever I see anything that is going wrong with law enforcement I say "Its the Patriot Acts Fault" regardless of any actual information IN the act that actually is at fault and regardless of whether or not the exact same thing could happen even before the Patriot Act.

    My issue is people USING this kid to hype up their anti-Patriot Act agenda and the media USING this kid to hyper sensationalize a situation because "Patriot Act" is a nice big scary word that people don't understand so they can exaggerate and outright lie out of ignorance about in hopes of getting the public whipped up into a ferver.

    Also, the waterboarding things was mostly in jest. Learn to take a joke.
    Yes, I got that it was a joke. That's why nothing I posted really responded to that portion.

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Thanks for the news article. I have FAR less issue with that as in there they at least frame it from a reporting stand point that the main affront in regards to the Patriot Act was the detainment where as the TV story attempted to frame the entire thing as being a Patriot Act issue with "a lot" of rights being taken away.

    I will disagree STRONGLY with the lawyer, but can't blame him because its his job to defend his client.

    "They're saying that 'We feel this individual is a terrorist or an enemy combatant against the United States, and we're going to suspend all of those due process rights because this person is an enemy of the United States," said Dan Boyce, a defense attorney and former U.S. attorney not connected to the Lundeby case."
    No, they're not saying that at all. This is what the Media and those that stir up paranoia and fear about the Patriot Act say that it says. The LARGE amount of the provisions do NOT deal directly with "Terrorists" or enemy combatants. While some of it does, its not as large as people are lead to believe by most people whipping up fear about the Patriot Act and the way its been presented by the Media, and yes politicians, since day one.

    The vast majority of things were steps taken to bring our intelligence code up to modern technological standards and to enhance the ability of law enforcement to deal with specific situations that were used as loopholes to get around previous law. There were, and still are, things that were controversial and unconstitutional in it and they have been steadily sunsetting and stripped out of the Act and my hope is if there is something involving this case that falls into that category I hope its stripped out as well. HOWEVER, to imply that somehow the Patriot Act is meant to only deal with "terrorists" or "enemy combatants" is either meaning someone is COMPLETELY ignorant of what the bill actually says or is simply massaging the issue and playing off peoples perceptions in hopes of winning the public and in time the court to his side. My guess, as a good lawyer, its the later, because I fail to believe he's so ignorant of the law that he has not given the Act at least a once over and saw that a large swatch of it does not in any way signify it is only for use on terrorist and enemy combatants.

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    I think right to speedy trial and such is quintessential. Maybe I'm crazy on that one, but I view it as a HUGE right and one that necessarily must be upheld. I definitely didn't get out of the article what you claim to have. The use of the Patriot Act seems to me to specifically refer to incarceration, and I didn't see information that he had council. The former US attorney isn't his council I don't believe. When something is amiss and it is on the government's side, I will blame them and hold them in suspicion. Sorry. It's not the kids idea to remain in prison, the one keeping him there is the government. There is no information because of the government.

    So yeah, I will agree that I read this and see something seriously amiss and I will question the government and the laws it used to obtain its will. You will accept it and see if the government will in the future give you the information to make up your mind, but till that point it's whatever it is till the government tells you what it is. I'm a little concerned that an American citizen can be kept in prison so long without notice of charges, bond, hearings, etc. All sorts of matters of public record, or at least private seemingly not done. Had the kid been denied bond, it could be reported he was denied bond. If he was released and put on gag order, that could be reported too. But there's nothing. Sorry, but I think that the indefinite incarceration of citizens with little to no information on why they are being held seemingly without trial is a big misstep with the government.

    Innocent until proven guilty only matters if you're given court dates. If they keep you in jail without access to that which you by right have; it matters little if you're innocent or guilty or what the government considers you to be. So I blame the government, yes. Tell me when the government was meant to be trusted. Why should I when it seems that they are the one at fault? I blame the laws they use to get their way, yes. Why should I trust the laws made by government which expand their scope and power beyond that which they were originally given? Under normal law, they could not have held that kid there for 2 months and there still be no information, there's be some. Even if there had to be a gag order for court purposes, things on bond hearings, lawyers, etc would be public. Nothing. Maybe you're willing to sit back and play it cool and wait till the government allows the information to get to you. But I'm going to be disconcerted with the fact that apparently one of our own countrymen is behind bars and there's no indication that his rights have been upheld. I'm not going to trust the government or its power grabbing laws.

    Maybe you're right and I'm wrong on that, it's a distinct possibility. But I'm not trusting the government till they prove themselves otherwise with me. Individuals are innocent until proven guilty, the government is guilty until proven innocent.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    Um, no. Thanks for trying to play psychic but you are wrong. I believe it WAS CNN I saw this on first. Even if it wasn't on CNN, a local news station is a "fringe" news source now?

    Thanks for trying to be witty though, too bad it didn't work out to well.
    1 - I searched the CNN site for news or video of this and got nothing. You did not see it on CNN

    2 - the story as reported by the local station contained almost no information. It was badly reported, badly written and badly sourced.

    3 - If this was a real story, the mainstream media would be all over it, despite your conspiratorial belief that they would "hide" it.

    4 - the Patriot Act was cooked up by Republicans, and I didn't hear the right whining about it when Bush was president

    5 - When I am "trying to be witty" I will send you an PM to alert you.

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    1 - I searched the CNN site for news or video of this and got nothing. You did not see it on CNN

    2 - the story as reported by the local station contained almost no information. It was badly reported, badly written and badly sourced.

    3 - If this was a real story, the mainstream media would be all over it, despite your conspiratorial belief that they would "hide" it.

    4 - the Patriot Act was cooked up by Republicans, and I didn't hear the right whining about it when Bush was president


    5 - When I am "trying to be witty" I will send you an PM to alert you.
    One bone of contention. While Republicans may've "cooked it up", Democrats were complicite in its passing.

    Second, to be fair, some in this thread WERE critical of it even with when Bush was President. Ikari one of the main ones. Republicans weren't that down on it, but Libertarians for the most part HATED the thing.

    Now, I was one to defend portions of it under Bush and I'll continue defend those portions under Obama. But, as has came up in multiple threads on the Patriot Act, I've got a really funky approach to it that seems to put me at odds with people on both sides (it doesn't help that few things infuriate me as much as people ignorant of the realities of the act that simply act solely off a single source or two from only one side of it that are giving slanted and opinion filled views of it).

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    Re: USA using Patriot Act against its own citizens

    Zyphilin, I have a question.

    I have been informed that, under the Patriot Act:
    1. The President or Atty Gen can, by signing the appropriate form, declare an individual to be an "enemy combatant". No evidence is required, just that signature on that form.
    2. Having been so declared, the individual (even if a US citizen) may be taken into custody, held without charges, without a lawyer, without phone calls, etc indefinately.

    Is this correct?

    G.

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