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Thread: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

  1. #21
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    Re: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

    Quote Originally Posted by Tashah View Post
    I've thought about this. Why is Netanyahu the Israeli PM today?

    The Livni block did indeed garner the most votes in the election, but not enough to form a working government without embracing the various minority blocks and thus diluting the Kadima platform.

    Remember that the election was held in the midst of conflict with Hamas. Olmert and Kadima had previously adopted a very moderate postion in regards to negotiations with Abbas. It was Livni's intent to continue this moderate stance after the election.

    Olmert asked, cajoled, pleaded, and warned Hamas to stop the incessant rocket attacks. Hamas refused. Due to the great internal pressures from Israelis fed up with the Hamas attacks, Olmert had virtually no viable alternative except to initiate blunt force.

    I personally believe that if Hamas had stopped with the attacks (even temporarily), Livni would have garnered the plurality necessary to claim uncontested victory and form a majority moderate government. But Hamas didn't stop. It instead increased the tempo and violence of the attacks. Many Israeli voters who had intended to vote for Livni considered the situation and came to the conclusion that Hamas had no intention whatsoever of meeting a moderate Kadima government even halfway. Continued warfare was unavoidable. In such a war environment, many people understandably prefer a hawkish government. This preference sucked precious votes away from Livni and the moderates.

    One could easily speculate that the increased Hamas attacks were calculated to almost ensure that post-election, Abbas would have to deal with the implacable Netanyahu rather than the more moderate and flexible Livni.

    The calculated Hamas rocket attacks were political arrows rather than resistence weaponry. The implications are clear. The result is before your eyes. One could venture to say that Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu is the love child of Hamas rockets and intransigence.
    I've thought about this myself. Hamas stands to lose power and influence among Palestinians if an actual peace plan begins to emerge. I don't think they want that. Hamas has no interest in peace, but I think most Palestinians really do.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You have to be anti-semitic to say the stuff you're saying.
    Are you even aware of the definition?
    Go pick up a dictionary before calling me anything.


  3. #23
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    Re: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Laila,

    The Arab initiative--revised or not--can't be a "take it or leave it" proposition, if it is to be a milestone on the road to peace. It can be a constructive starting point.

    But for things to move from concept to concrete substance, the parties will need to engage in direct negotiations. Only through negotiations can differences be bridged and mutual needs accommodated.
    For me, this is the almost near perfect peace plan we will ever get.
    Israelis get recognition, normalization of ties, demilitarized Palestinian state, no longer have to take the 'right to return' for palestinians to their old homes in Israel, Arab help in securing the region ...

    A seperate Palestinian state will be recreated with the blessing of the world, east jerusalem as their capital and UN having a role in the capital :/

    What else do Israelis want? It seems that is everything they have been asking for ....

    Either way, the one good thing in this whole thing is that it brings Arabs out in the good light and shows they are willing to make concessions for peace. The ball is in the hands of the highly nationalistic [who has not even recognised the need for a two state solution] government who is extreme.
    Last edited by Laila; 05-06-09 at 01:53 PM.


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    Re: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    It "won the land in a war." Just like Saddam "won the land in Kuwait" when he invaded. But we saw fit to kick him out. Just like we won Iraq in a war. But everyone sure as hell wants us out. Just because Israel "won it in a war" doesn't make the land theirs, it makes occupied territory. Israel didn't gain ownership of it, they took it by force and continue to occupy it. Just like Iraq occupied Kuwait, and we occupied Iraq.


    And Israel has dropped a mailed fist on them repeatedly. I get it. There is a war going on. But some Palestinians and some Israeli's would seriously like to see an end to the fighting. In fact I would bet most would. The question is how do they reach an amicable solution.

    I'm rather hopeful, even if it sounds naive to be so, that at some point a solution will be reached. I do not think the Israelis and Palestinians are such animals that they simply fight out of instinct. But that's just me.
    The Arabs attacked Israel first, and lost.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    The Arabs attacked Israel first, and lost.
    I was watching Defiance today. Its about Jews on the run and hiding in the deep forests of the then German occupied Poland and Belorussia (World War II), the three Bielski brothers find the impossible task of foraging for food and weapons for their survival. They live, not only with the fear of discovery, contending with neighboring Soviet partisans and knowing whom to trust but also take the responsibility of looking after a large mass of fleeing Polish Jews from the German war machine. Women, men, children, the elderly and the young alike are all hiding in makeshift homes in the dark, cold and unforgiving forests in the darkest times of German occupied Eastern Europe.

    It depicts the bravery, the might, the resolve, and the strength of the Jewish people, even when times got desperate. They lived in forests, hunted like animals. They survived off nature, food was scarce, and times was dangerous; but they where free. Daniel craig plays as one of the leaders of the group. I recommend you all watch it. Its a true story.

    I tell of this story because it depicts a race of people having to struggle against a rising tide of perposterous evil. There very existence threatened. There bravery and courage charmes me everytime i think about this wonderful story, and it also reminds each time, that for such a thing to ever happen again, against the Jewish people, would be a travesty and a failure on the part of all mankind. Therefore, to avoid a repeat of the future, we must ensure that both Arabs and Jews find a peaceful, well thought out deal, and a home in the Middle East, together. In otherwords, it must be known to the Jewish people that supporting the unpeaceful ideologies of Netanyahu's party will never bring peace to them in a homeland where for once in there history, they can remain undisturbed.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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  6. #26
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    Re: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    The Arabs attacked Israel first, and lost.
    I'm acutely aware of the history of the region. Your statement has no bearing on whether or not they own the land. They launched a counter offensive, invaded those territories and occupied them.

    That is not Israeli land, it's Israeli occupied land. There is no sacrifice in returning it to the nation that actually has state claim in it.

    Look, I'm a big fan of Israel, I respect them greatly as a nation. I do not always agree with their politics and policy, it is what it is. But I don't have to be PRO-ISRAELI or PRO PALESTINIAN here to realize a very simple fact. There is no "sacrifice" in returning that which does not rightfully belong to you. Israel occupied the land out of military convenience. Not because it was theirs and they were taking it back.

    This is about "what it takes to bring peace to the region." I don't view this condition as a sacrifice or unreasonable.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

    Someone have a link to the details of the peace plan? The article doesn't mention them. I have a hard time believing it is as simple as it seems. Few things are.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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  8. #28
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    Re: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

    Nevermind...I found a link. I have a problem with the initiative. The Arab demands are pretty well defined. What Israel gets in return is fine but has no fine points to it, leading to the possibility for "misinterpretation". Forgive me for being suspicious, but remember. Back in 2002, one day before this peace plan was, initially, going to be made public, the Passover Massacre occurred, a suicide bombing that killed 30 Israeli citizens. I'd like to see some of the details hashed out. And this is the problem. The initiative from the Arabs calls for the Israelis to agree to this before any fine points are negotiated.

    You don't enter a contract without reading, discussing, and agreeing to the fine print. In it's current form, I say veto.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 05-07-09 at 04:41 AM.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    All they have to do is recognize Palestine and leave the occupied territories
    Which "Palestine" is that? All of this is just an exercise in futility so long as Hamas retains control in Gaza.

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    Re: Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    I disagree.
    Peace can be done without a war. All is needed is sacrifices to be made on both parties.

    I think this time it'll be the Israelis that will be unwilling for peace with the crazies in Government.

    How ironic, the Arabs are finally making concessions on key issues with the promise of recognition and the normalization of relations with the support of the Arab league and US/EU and i bet you alot Israel will reject it ...
    As if Hamas would accept the peace deal anyways.

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