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Thread: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanistan

  1. #401
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    Re: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanista

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Some would call this childish.
    And yet, here you are.

    Oh here it is in the CIA handbook....."stack naked bodies up in pyramid formation for fun." Oh and here it states to..."have sex with married superior and have baby."

    These were idiot civilians in uniform behaving badly. Nothing more. It's not about defending anybody. It's about seeing it for what it is and not invoking exaggeration to cling to crap. And given your avatar, it would appear that you are more interested in the exxageration over the simple truths. What do you say to all those civilians "murdered" under Obama in Afghanistan? Not as delicious when "Bush" isn't in the sentence is it?
    For someone so involved in the military you are very NOT educated with what really goes on, ehh?

    Cheney and Rumsfeld sent a group of not professional CIA interrogators, from Gitmo, over to Abu Ghraib to do the same thing there that they were doing at Gitmo. Since you're in the military, you are aware of this... right? Oh, that's right, your "Yes Sir!" mind set prevents you from seeing reality. No problem. There will always be that population of the military that is only as open minded as they think their superiors want them to be.

    For your education of what really went on in your military:
    Within months, concerns over the efficacy of interrogations in Iraq led the commander of the Guantanamo Bay detention facility, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, to visit Iraq from Aug. 31 to Sept. 10, 2003 and deliver to the commanding general there, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, instructions to “Gitmo-ize” Abu Ghraib. At the same time, Abu Ghraib’s interrogations chief, Capt. Carolyn Wood, who had served as the interrogation operations officer at Afghanistan’s Bagram detention facility, submitted a “wish list” of interrogation techniques to her chain of command. This is what the Senate Armed Services Committee’s report had to say about that, on page 170 of its report:

    Techniques in CPT Wood’s proposed policy can be traced back to the [Special Mission Unit Task Force] in Iraq to Afghanistan and, ultimately, to techniques authorized for use at GTMO by Secretary Rumsfeld in December 2002. The GTMO techniques were, in turn, influenced by techniques used by the Joint Personnel Recovery Agency and the military service SERE schools to train U.S. personnel to resist illegal enemy interrogations.
    Sanchez, on Sept. 14, 2003, issued a new interrogation policy for Abu Ghraib after Miller’s visit, incorporating Wood’s request and the “Gitmo-ization” rules. Central Command was so shocked by its call for “military working dogs, stress positions, sleep deprivation, loud music, and light control” that it ordered him to revise the policy, which he did on Oct. 12, taking away most of those techniques, but adding, “Should working dogs be present during interrogations, they will be muzzled and under the control of a handler at all times to ensure safety.” Dog teams arrived at Abu Ghraib; lax controls over the separation between prison guards and prison interrogators broke down; and what happened at Abu Ghraib between September and December 2003 — “numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses,” as an investigator, Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba determined — was the result.

    Notice that this is a straight line between the the CIA interrogation program at Abu Ghraib, moving like a game of telephone. At each stage, an important safeguard or restriction assumed at an earlier stage — the techniques apply only to the CIA; the techniques are to be used only on Geneva-exempted enemy combatants; the techniques are to be applied only by interrogators — breaks down. Not once do you have to assume that the Bush administration’s principals wanted abuse to happen to reach this conclusion. This is why the law exists, after all: to prevent unintended consequences by well-meaning individuals that veer off into horror. Redefining the law on torture leads to what a 2004 Pentagon investigation called the “migration” of so-called “enhanced interrogation” techniques — even if that investigation didn’t have any mandate for discovering that the origins of those techniques came from CIA programs approved at the highest levels of the Bush administration
    The Washington Independent More Cheney Truth-Squaddery

    In reading over Bush’s press conference transcript, I was almost starting to feel some sympathy for him. Until I got to this part, which responded to a request to identify his mistakes:
    There have been disappointments.

    Abu Ghraib, obviously, was a huge disappointment, during the presidency.
    A “disappointment.” That’s the type of language parents use when they catch their kids drinking. It implies that they didn’t really have control. The parents certainly didn't cause anything -- they were just disappointed that their very high standards weren’t being met.

    That’s not at all what we have here though. President Bush – authorizer of illegal torture – is not entitled to use the word “disappointment” to describe Abu Ghraib, as if it were some frat party gone horribly awry. Abu Ghraib was – as both Jane Mayer and the Senate Armed Forces Committee have extensively documented – the direct result of the President’s and his top officials’ authorization of torture. And he knows it – and everyone else knows it too.

    Indeed, what’s striking is how obvious the trail from SERE to Abu Ghraib is to anyone who cares to look. It's almost embarrassingly clear.

    The SERE tactics, as Sullivan notes, were designed to help the American military withstand illegal torture. Here’s how the report (p.2) describes them. See if any of these tactics sound vaguely familiar when thinking about the pictures from Abu Ghraib:
    The techniques used in SERE school, based, in part, on Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean war to elicit false confessions, include stripping students of their clothing, placing them in stress positions, putting hoods over their heads, disrupting their sleep, treating them like animals, subjecting them to loud music and flashing lights, and exposing them to extreme temperatures. It can also include face and body slaps and until recently, for some who attended the Navy’s SERE school, it included waterboarding.

    Wow. What a crazy coincidence that a few bad low-level apples just happened to mimic – precisely – Chinese Communist torture tactics.

    Anyway, everyone should read the report to see the trail in all its glory. But the nickel version goes something like this: There’s a division with the Defense Department (DoD) – JPRA – that oversees the SERE tactics and the resistance training. Beginning in December 2001 and beyond, the JPRA briefed, trained, and instructed both senior DoD officials and Gitmo interrogators.

    Amazingly, after Gitmo interrogators were actually flown to the US to be trained by JPRA people, SERE tactics started popping up at Gitmo. Some months later, the Gitmo commander traveled to Iraq to toughen up interrogations of detainees. Lo and behold, these very same tactics started popping up in Iraq as well. No one could have predicted ...
    Obsidian Wings: A "Disappointment"

    Happy Memorial Day, Sarge.

    You're quite welcome for the lesson.
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

  2. #402
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    Re: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanista

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Oh and try attacking these facts instead of the reporting source this time.
    Well, it's pretty hard when your sources are all from side efforts instead of the mainstream. And it is also hard when the individual srpouting those exaggerations also seek to portray the military as a religiously motivated crusading element upon the earth. And you were a Marine Officer? Surely even CNN has something to offer legitimacy to the Abu Ghraib exaggerations?

    The exaggerations of Abu Ghraib get more involved year after year.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-26-09 at 07:36 PM.

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    Re: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanista

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    You're quite welcome for the lesson.

    I appreciate the lesson. But I am here for the discussion, not the your childish antics. Behave as an adult and you will be treated as one. Behave as something less and you will contuinue to encounter friction from the members.

    Once again, I don't consider waterboarding as torture. Never did. Even when the CIA was doing during the Cold War when it wasn't a political tool to stage attacks against a rival. Pelosi seems uncomfortable these days. See what I mean? It's a case just like body armor. Nobody cared that troops in Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, or Kosovo were without. But all of sudden Democrats cared in 2001. I don't buy into the idea that standards set at Geneva to dictate what the world is supposed to adhere to in war applies to an enemy today who plays by his own set of rules not fathomed by white Western men who used to slap each other with gloves to induce a civilized duel.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-26-09 at 07:37 PM.

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    Re: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanista

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    I appreciate the lesson.
    You're welcome.

    But I am here for the discussion, not the your childish antics. Behave as an adult and you will be treated as one. Behave as something less and you will contuinue to encounter friction from the members.
    Ok daddyo. The only friction I see is from people who can't stand the facts. Like you. They don't bother me. But, I appreciate your concern.

    Once again, I don't consider waterboarding as torture. Never did. Even when the CIA was doing during the Cold War when it wasn't a political tool to stage attacks against a rival.
    You certainly have a right to your opinion. But, you seem quite ignorant on what the law, US and international is. What does matter is what is law. Waterboarding is torture and is illegal. To say that is not true is the proverbial ostrich with his head in the sand. Just put a pic of an ostrich for your avatar and we'll understand.

    Does it make you feel ok to know that everyone of those guys who was tortured will never be tried and convicted of their crimes because Cheney and Rummy and Bush got their jollies by torturing them? Don't you think that is the lowest of dumb?

    Pelosi seems uncomfortable these days.
    She'll be fine. She's handling the Repukes' misdirection efforts easily.

    It's a case just like body armor. Nobody cared that troops in Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, or Kosovo were without. But all of sudden Democrats cared in 2001. I don't buy into the idea that standards set at Geneva to dictate what the world is supposed to adhere to in war applies to an enemy today who plays by his own set of rules not fathomed by white Western men who used to slap each other with gloves to induce a civilized duel.
    Your boy, Rumsfeld is the one who didn't give two hoots about providing our soldiers with body armor. Don't kid yourself! what was that he answered when asked why our soldiers don't have that body armor? "You go to war with what you have." He's also the asshat that was directly responsible for many more Americans to be killed, than had to, when he insisted on invading another country with too small a force!

    Do yourself a favor and don't jump to defend them just because they gave you your orders. They didn't deserve that kind of blind loyalty from any serviceman. Any!
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

  5. #405
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    Re: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanista

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Well, it's pretty hard when your sources are all from side efforts instead of the mainstream. And it is also hard when the individual srpouting those exaggerations also seek to portray the military as a religiously motivated crusading element upon the earth. And you were a Marine Officer? Surely even CNN has something to offer legitimacy to the Abu Ghraib exaggerations?

    The exaggerations of Abu Ghraib get more involved year after year.
    I try to use the most convenient source with the facts. I could spend a greater amount of time sourcing for you but you'll just have to settle on facts instead of where the facts were typed into the internet. Again, dispute the facts or go stare at your navel.

    The information on Abu Ghraib gets out more and more each years as documents get released and people come forward.

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    Re: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanista

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    I appreciate the lesson. But I am here for the discussion, not the your childish antics.
    No you're not, you're here to push your neocon ideals. To the point of denial of fact.
    Behave as an adult and you will be treated as one. Behave as something less and you will contuinue to encounter friction from the members.
    LOL...
    Once again, I don't consider waterboarding as torture. Never did.
    If you waterboard someone, Gunny, will you or will you not be prosecuted by either the military or the federal government? Since I know the answer to be yes, then, it doesn't matter what your opinion is, the law is the law and waterboarding is illegal because it is torture.

    Even when the CIA was doing during the Cold War when it wasn't a political tool to stage attacks against a rival.
    Weak.

    Pelosi seems uncomfortable these days. See what I mean?
    Not to me she doesn't. So, no I guess I don't see what you mean.

    It's a case just like body armor. Nobody cared that troops in Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, or Kosovo were without. But all of sudden Democrats cared in 2001.
    You're the gift that keeps on giving. Because our troops weren't being killed daily due to a lack of body armor. DUH.

    I don't buy into the idea that standards set at Geneva to dictate what the world is supposed to adhere to in war applies to an enemy today who plays by his own set of rules not fathomed by white Western men who used to slap each other with gloves to induce a civilized duel.
    So it's the age game, eh? You mean like the Constitution? How about the bible?

  7. #407
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    Re: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanista

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    You're welcome....

    Ok daddyo. The only friction I see is from people who can't stand the facts. Like you. They don't bother me. But, I appreciate your concern....

    But, you seem quite ignorant on what the law, US and international is.....

    ....Just put a pic of an ostrich for your avatar and we'll understand....

    .....Don't you think that is the lowest of dumb?....
    And this would be that adolescent behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    .....Your boy, Rumsfeld.... is the one who didn't give two hoots about providing our soldiers with body armor.
    Rumsfeld was perhaps the worst SECDEF America has ever had. Calling him "my boy" is completely unecessary and childish. Of course, my reasons for disliking him involve more to the reality of his blundering than the half-assed media spoon fed garbage people cling to.

    And as for "body armor"....I'm sure you are aware that when I was in Somalia and Haiti.....and others were in Bosnia....that we had no "body armor" either. Despite the policemen on our streets having body armor for decades, the "soldier" alwasy deployed with mere fragmentation jackets. Funny how it became something the Democratic party cared abot when there guy wasn't in the White House. And even worse that slavery induced civilian followers sought it reason enough to care for the troop while aiding the partisan slave fest.

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    Re: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanista

    Quote Originally Posted by slippery slope
    If you waterboard someone, Gunny, will you or will you not be prosecuted by either the military or the federal government? Since I know the answer to be yes, then, it doesn't matter what your opinion is, the law is the law and waterboarding is illegal because it is torture.
    I'm in the military. The CIA can what ever they want. Doesn't bother me at all. And international law is largely a joke. Ask yourself why Africans are slaughtered under genocide with absolutely no international demand for action. Ask yourself why men can slaughter at will as long as they do so within their borders. International "law" allows this. Why was it "legal" to enter Haiti to correct a soveriegn issue to re-instate the president when it is not "legal" to topple a brutal dictator who slaughters, oppresses, and causes mayhem in an entire region? Why is it "legal" to stop genocide in Europe, but not "legal" to stop it in Africa? Because the UN said so? The same UN that declared our action over Kosovo as illegal? The same UN that looks the other way just to avoid having to address genocide? There's your beloved law.

    I do not concern myself with people's hypocritical and intermittent use of international law.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    You're the gift that keeps on giving. Because our troops weren't being killed daily due to a lack of body armor.
    ........Sure. This is BS partisan politics at its best. No careerest was fooled by the Democratic Party's sudden "care" about the troops and nor was he/she surprised when Americans chose to ride the band wagon.

    Nobody cared about body armor after "Black Hawk Down." Nobody cared when Americans were entering Afghanistan. It only mattered when it could be used to protest a war they didn't want. The troops benefitted. But let's not pretend it was because of some noble sentiment of politicians or their dimwitted stooges sitting at home on the couch.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-31-09 at 07:30 PM.

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    Re: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanista

    Oh and one little item I would like to point out have work with and around CIA Ops the folks in the US Military really have no clue what the CIA as a matter of fact no one really has a clue what type of operation the CIA Station might be running.

    This has been the MO for the CIA since 1947.

  10. #410
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    Re: U.S. soldiers encouraged to spread message of their Christian faith in Afghanista

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    Oh and one little item I would like to point out have work with and around CIA Ops the folks in the US Military really have no clue what the CIA as a matter of fact no one really has a clue what type of operation the CIA Station might be running.

    This has been the MO for the CIA since 1947.
    Exactly. The protestors and the pain in the asses of America think they have it all figured out because they read a blog or an "independant" source that exaggerates or assumes the absolute worse. Everything is supposed to have a CIA hand on it and god help the CIA if they were involved with as little as delivering pencil erasers. No matter what the involvement, as long as the CIA can be traced to it in some way, then the conspiracies and the dark shadows of American tyranny seeps from the tongues of the masses.

    And it all goes back to simply disliking the man that sits in the White House at the time of event.

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