View Poll Results: In regard to Lynddie England and Charles Grainer....

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  • Not guilty. Let them go.

    3 16.67%
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  • Guilty, and so are their superiors. Prosecute superiors too.

    0 0%
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Thread: Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

  1. #1
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    Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

    Lynddie England and Charles Grainer, found guilty and sentenced to prison for torturing prisoners in Iraq, are filing new appeals in light of the Bush Torture Memos coming into the public domain.

    Now here is the problem -

    1) Both Abu Ghraib guards are being punished for following what they considered to be lawful orders. Now I realize that "following orders" is not an excuse, and this argument did not get Nazi death camp guards off the hook. But their direct superiors were also prosecuted, Hitler's staff was prosecuted, and Hitler himself would have been prosecuted, has he not committed suicide. The difference here is that those who ordered England and Grainer to torture their suspects are being let off the hook. The legal argument here is that the torture memos were supposed to absolve participants in torture of criminal charges.

    2) England and Grainer did go beyond the scope of what they were ordered to do, and that should be a big factor in their sentences being upheld. However, part of their orders themselves are considered by many to have been illegal in the first place. If they are punished for following those orders, then shouldn't those who gave the orders also be punished?

    3) The crux of the matter itself - Are the Bush memos smoking guns that the Bush Administration itself authorized illegal acts? There are 2 schools of thought on that - YES and NO. That is the big question which must be answered.

    So let's have a vote.

    Article is here.
    Last edited by danarhea; 05-02-09 at 01:02 PM.
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    Re: Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

    Abu Garib was a different situation and you know it.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

    Uh, the Bush memos on the waterboarding?

    No. That has nothing to do with the two of them. And they weren't convicted of torturing anyone. Sloppy, inflammatory language like that does not serve the cause of the truth. And you want to serve the truth, don't you?
    Last edited by Harshaw; 05-02-09 at 01:07 PM.
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    Re: Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Uh, the Bush memos on the waterboarding?

    No. That has nothing to do with the two of them. And they weren't convicted of torturing anyone. Sloppy, inflammatory language like that does not serve the cause of the truth. And you want to serve the truth, don't you?
    That is an option in the poll. If your post is your answer, then choose option 2.
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    Re: Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

    I have always suspected that alot of what happened at Abu Ghraib was ordered. I suspect as information comes out that the cases against these two will have to be re-examined, but right now, there is just not enough information to say for sure one way or another whether the convictions are just or not.

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    Re: Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

    There is no "problem."

    The Abu Ghraib guards were getting their jollies, not interrogating terrorists. Charles Graner and Lynndie England are grasping at straws to get out of prison.

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    Re: Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

    Those 11 soldiers did NOT go beyond what they were told! This illustrates what cowards Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and more truly are. They ordered this treatment and stood by like chicken ****s while these honorable soldiers took the blame for what the admin authorized.

    Bush authorized the treatment of prisoners at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib.

    Those 11 will be pardoned.
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    Re: Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

    Of course they're scapegoats.

    The whole structure of the military judicial system is to make sure the officers don't get punished for something they can blame on an enlisted guy.

    The Captain of the USS Greeneville was morally, legally, and actualy responsible for the ill-timed EMBT blow that killed those japanese on the fishing boat off Hawaii. They successfully palmed that off on the sonar techs who had no control of anything, and then the officers skipped off to a cushy retirement on the wrong side of the prison bars.

    The efforts of the officer caste in the aftermath of the collision of the USS La Jolla with the USS Permit in 1982 to blaime the La Jolla's sonar crew was forestalled when the Weapons Officer of that ship took custody of the sonar tapes and refused his captain possession of them. The tapes were turned over to the review board and the office in command of the LaJolla, Cdr GC Beard and the OOD at the time, a Lt. Downing, were formally reprimanded for the collision.

    However, the LaJolla/Permit collision resulted in no injuries or deaths.

    The general policy, however, is to blame the enlisted guy.

    The Abu Graib show-trials were confirmation that the policy is still enforced.

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    Re: Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

    What they did was beyond anything talked about or outlined in the "memo's". They did acts of interrogatin and just plain humiliation that did not fall within the guidelines, and did things at times for reasons that had nothing to do with information gathering and had completely everything to do with humiliation.

    Them saying that since they were authorized to do some things they're not guilty for doing more than what they were authorized is like saying a marine that decides to randomly go murdering people at night is not guilty because he was authorized to kill the enemy so its okay if he wanted to take that farther and just kill in general.

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    Re: Abu Ghraib Guards Say Memos Show They Were Scapegoats

    What they were told to do was not in those memos. They were instructed and directed by the CIA to "soften up" the prisoners. They were told how to do this. General Karpinski testified she was not even allowed in the section of the prison by order of Gen. Gonzalez (sp?), her boss. The same group that trained the Gitmo guards were sent to do the same at Ghraib.

    Those soldiers were not even MPs. They shouldn't have had anything to do with those prisoners. But, that's Rumsfeld's doing!

    This has all been in the news, magazines, books and interviews. I think some of you only spit up what O'reilly and the Mannity and BushCo say. Most of you wouldn't believe Bush and his thugs did any of what they are accused of "EVEN" if you saw it with your own eyes!
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

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