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Religious tend to support torture more often

Jerry said:
Religion is a key agent of socialization which helps one develop their moral cumpis.'
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Sure it can be, but it is not necessary. To say I have an underdeveloped moral compass because I'm irreligious is unvalidated rot.

All things being equal, not having that agent of socialization renders one less developed than someone with religion.
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Then that assertion should be easy to prove. Go ahead, support the claim.
 
Captain America said:
I think we just oughta "man-up" and put this torture crap to rest.

Did we torture these guys? Damn right we did.

Is it the image we want to portray to the world as the "American way?" Probably not. But on the other hand, it might be.

It was once said, "Walk softly and carry a big stick."

When it's not enough to be the breadbasket of the world, donating huge portions of our tax dollars to foreign humanitarian causes, leading the globe in civilized negotiations and arbitrations, and still a faction of humanity thinks we deserve to have thousands of our people burning and falling out of high rise buildings and from the skies, I say "screw them."

Waterboarding? Wah, wah, wah......

If it will save one American life, I got no problem with them pulling their fingernails out or staking them to a Texas anthill.

I'd prefer to be the country everybody loves and respects. I think as far as global benevolency goes, we do ok. But money can't buy you love. So, if all the "peace, love and understanding (and money:roll:) " approach don't work then whip out the big stick.

I know that the stats are against me on this one. There are a lot of valid arguments and facts that go against "enhanced" intelligence gathering. Even my brother, who is in the business, says torture is counter productive.

But still, I can't muster any sympathy for these "detainees." I guess I'm the odd man out on this one. I could care less if they diced them, sliced them, and julianne fried them.

I'll work on it.

Oh yes.....

I am not a church-go-er in the slightest. Don't hang ths on the religious nuts.

Just man up and say", "Hell yeah we did it! And we're gonna do it again, you smelly bastards, if we have to!"

I could live with that. ;)
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Yeah, and throw away the moral high ground and get down in the dirt with the EXTREME MINORITY in the world that wishes us harm because of our actions... I mean the other actions than the ones you listed above. You know, the raping of resources, exploitation of their poor/uneducated people, invading their country for no good reason, conducting covert operations to destablize their governments, inciting revolutions, supporting tyrants, bullying them to do what is best for us... Ah, what the hell, maybe if we saw a few heads off, that extreme minority will respect us more... forget about how that will affect our standing with the majority of the world because, like any bully, you can only see the easy targets and not the consequences.
 
Goshin said:
I see you are labeled "very liberal". That's accurate. You're practically a walking cliche.
If you think that arabic countries, with Muslim governments and law, living under sharia, are morally equivalent to the USA, then go live in one for a year and tell us how you enjoyed it.
Take the whole family! Your womenfolks can know the joy of not being able to go outdoors without wearing a tent-dress and a veil; of not being allowed to speak to any man they aren't related to without their husband present; in some countries, of being stoned to death for the crime of learning to read.

Tell them about the joys of atheism! I'm sure they'll be facinated, and you can tell us how they respected your right to free speech... assuming they don't cut off your head.
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He made no moral equivalency. This is a strawman... talk about a walking cliche. Your rant has absolutely ZERO to do with anything he said in that post.

All nations and cultures are NOT morally equal. Has the US made some foreign policy blunders in the mideast over the past several decades? Sure.
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He didn't make a moral equivillancy claim. We've done a LOT more than "some foreign policy blunders in the mideast over the past several decades"

That doesn't earn us the label of "as bad or worse than the terrorists" that Leftists have been trying to hang on us for years.
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Another strawman. Boy, you're batting 1000 in this post. No one said we are as bad as the terrorists... but bad is bad enough.
 
Goshin said:
I'm perfectly aware of what a straw man argument is.
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Oh so you did it out of pure, premeditated dishonesty eh? :toilet:

My point is that this "we brought it on ourselves" argument begins with an assumption of moral equivalency for all nations and cultures.
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No it doesn't.

An assumption that our actions in the mideast were equivalent to terrorist actions against the US, and with it the fundamental assumption that "we're no better than they are", and that US policy justified the 9/11 attacks.
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These are incongruent ideas.

"We brought it on ourselves" is typically a far-left argument.
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Well, it's a reality based argument. If you abuse people long enough they may just take a swing at you.

Granted, we made some mistakes.
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Why not just go whole hog and say maybe we made A mistake but it was so minor that I'm surprised anyone even noticed. Then in no time you can just claim we never made any mistakes.

Supporting the Shah of Iran was probably one, but I doubt the Ayatolla Khomeini would have been a US ally even if we'd helped him with his coup. They're just too radical.
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This just goes to show that you haven't aclue what you are talking about. I suggest you go read some history on that period of our involvement with Iran.

Others who make that argument above often cite our support for Israel as sufficient cause for them to attack us. That's another argument I don't accept; it makes it sound like we should treat an ally and someone who hates us as one and the same.
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Again, you lack a fundamental understanding of the relationship and our actions in support of Israel.

The Islamofascists such as Al-Q and Achmadinijahd of Iran have stated their goal many times; it is "to put the entire world under the Caliphate and Sharia."
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I just love it when the righties tell us how fearful our country of 300 million +, thousands of miles away, with the worlds biggest and most advanced military, should not only fear but take as a real threat and cow tow to the a couple of nut jobs. "Osama says the fight is in Iraq so we better stay there, because he said so"... it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

We're non-Islamic and powerful...we would have been in their line of fire sooner or later.
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Yeah, that's why they hate us... :roll:
 
Goshin said:
Aw, look at the little Leftist, forgetting that THIS could have happened AGAIN:

View attachment 67109233

View attachment 67109234

...and almost did.

At that size you may not be able to tell what the second pic is...its two people who jumped from the twin towers on 9/11 to avoid burning to death, holding hands as they fall.

Does anyone still remember how you felt that day?
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Got any proof it "almost did"?
 
celticlord said:
If an enemy will not stop no matter what, what options would remain? Limits only work if they flow in both directions.
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That's exactly what Jesus said... oh wait, I mean that's the exact opposite of what Jesus said... my bad.

Yes, I know you're an atheist.

As a man with family and friends near and dear, I find such foppish altruism to be repugnant. A man of respect defends his home and his family to the very last--he holds nothing back. The world has little need of the misshapen "honor" that sacrifices kin and comrades rather than venture into bloody battle with a barbarian horde.
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A barbarian horde? :rofl How many make up a horde? Talk about hyperbole. :roll:
 
celticlord said:
Your pardon, I did not mean to imply. I should have stated explicitly:

If a man wages war on my family, I will hunt him, his family, his children, his friends, and any he holds dear. If a man confines his conflict to me, I shall happily confine my conflict to him, and shall happily provide him with a decent burial to salute his honorable death.

If that makes me uncivilized in your eyes, then I shall proudly call myself uncivilized.
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*in my best Cheney impoersonation* Yes young padawan, use your anger, come to the darkside. Vengence is mine!!!

Are you related to the Hatfields or the McCoys? :shock:
 
Slippery Slope said:
*in my best Cheney impoersonation* Yes young padawan, use your anger, come to the darkside. Vengence is mine!!!
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Hopefully your Cheney impersonation is better than your spelling.

BTW...what anger?
 
MrVicchio said:
I beg to differ. The most wide spread mass killings occurred in the 20th Century in Countries where God was either erased by, or secondary to the state. NK, Cuba, USSR, China, Nazi Germany, Vietnam, Cambodia...
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So you will continue to push that ignorant argument regardless of how many times it's debunked eh? Typical.

Prove that those mass killings were done in the name of atheism or we must assume that you are willfully dishonest... oh... too late, but anyway, proof!
 
jallman said:
You obviously know NOTHING of the charity that the Catholic Church performs.
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Having been Catholic, having attended Catholic schools, having converted and spent many many years railing against xianity, I think I have a very good understanding. I do understand as well, your desire to deny the truth.
 
Slippery Slope said:
What constitutes and innocent life?
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I am hardly surprised you would read “life” from lives” and would feel compelled to ask the OBVIOUS based on your incoherent rants displayed in this thread.

"Innocent lives" equates to the people who were working in the World Trade Center who were murdered by desperate terrorists whom people like you appear to defend, for no other reason than they were Americans.

I find your desperate rhetoric specious in that you presume to suggest that these murderous thugs even had a reason to do what they do. You keep referring to OUR actions as if these thugs even need a reason to conduct their murder and terror, other than we are Americans and not Muslim.

You’re profound only in your own mind, but your arguments suggest someone who has little information, is historically ignorant and most likely to operate on an emotional level rather than intellectual.
 
Quote:Originally Posted by MrVicchio
I beg to differ. The most wide spread mass killings occurred in the 20th Century in Countries where God was either erased by, or secondary to the state. NK, Cuba, USSR, China, Nazi Germany, Vietnam, Cambodia...

Slippery Slope said:
So you will continue to push that ignorant argument regardless of how many times it's debunked eh? Typical.

Prove that those mass killings were done in the name of atheism or we must assume that you are willfully dishonest... oh... too late, but anyway, proof!
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The presumption that Communists are NOT atheists requires a stunning level ignorance. What part of the Communist manifesto regarding religion do you NOT comprehend?

Do you think that these mass killings could have occurred in a Democracy? Do you honestly want to argue that the Nazi’s were the result of democratic processes?

Chapter 11: Communism and Religion
§ 89. Why religion and communism are incompatibleNikolai Bukharin and Evgenii Preobrazhensky: The ABC of Communism - Chapter XI : Communism and Religion
 
Slippery Slope said:
Having been Catholic, having attended Catholic schools, having converted and spent many many years railing against xianity, I think I have a very good understanding. I do understand as well, your desire to deny the truth.
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You learned nothing in all that time because Catholic charities, by and large, do not involve proselytizing at all.

But you can keep lying about your experiences if you want to do so. It wouldn't be much of a deviation from anything else you spew.
 
Slippery Slope said:
I disagree... the reasons are vastly different. Well, at least in debate because it all revolves around power but the religious claim their deeds in gods favor while the non-religious claim their deeds for various purposes.
.
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They did it as part of Atheistic social engineering and an attack on the traditional belief structures of their nations.
 
Slippery Slope said:
You're a jingo. :2wave:
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Extreme patriotism? You're goddamn right!

Slippery Slope said:
Yeah, because people lucky enough to be born within our borders are simply more important and more worthy of life than in other parts of the world... :doh
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Yes they are. Just like your family is more important to you then mine.
So is it a ****ing crime to love MY country now? .......:roll:

**** off slick.
 
Orius said:
This was a pretty interesting read.

Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful - CNN.com

The statistics show that the more often you attend church... the more likely to support torture. When I read this I found it interesting but not surprising. Thoughts?
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OK Not so much a thought, but an observation. I was seeking THE knowledge, for a time , in the religeous chat rooms of old, on AOL. Again, just an observation,( not a thought or an opinion), Those people can be mean, and cruel as Hell.... TRUETH :shock:
 
talloulou said:
You put forth the premise that religion leads to a more ethically sound mind, Jer. Go read back. The ONLY thing I did was call b.s.
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The alternative rational you gave was shut down. Since you have no viable explanation yourself, I don't care what your opinion of my opinion is.

You are at best doing no better than me.
 
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