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Thread: Religious tend to support torture more often

  1. #361
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I was curious, so I had a closer look at this poll to see if the CNN article was correct. The Pew Research Center states in their publication that "statistical analysis that simultaneously examines correlations between views on torture, partisanship, ideology and demographic variables (including religion, education, race, etc.) finds that party and ideology are much better predictors of views on torture than are religion and most other demographic factors." Now, the CNN article simply states that "The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey", which tends to give the impression that those who are more religious support torture simply because they are religious.

    When I looked at the actual numbers, I discovered the following:



    As you can see, 15% of those who are religiously unaffiliated supported torture as "often justified", which is the exact same percentage as those who are "White Mainline Protestents". However, the sample size for unaffiliated is only 94 people, as opposed to those who are mainline protestants or Catholics (with sample sizes of 150 and 122 respectively). It's highly possible that the unaffiliated percentage would rise if sample size was increased. In addition, the "White Mainline Protestant" group percentage which said that torture can NEVER be justified is greater than the unaffiliated group. Even if the sample size for the unaffiliated religious was increased, it's unknown if this would exceed the percentage of mainline Protestants.

    Based on this, I think the CNN article is misleading. Look at the percentage of attendence, and compare it to respective sample sizes. 25% of 336 people who attend church regularly claim that torture is never justified - that's what, 84 people? Among those who rarely or never attend, the percentage is almost exactly the same - 26%, or 43 people.

    My guess is that if sample size were increased among the seldom attendees, you'd probably see more of a statistical similarity. But I invite you to look at the numbers and judge for yourself.

    Personally, I think those who are religious support torture no more or less than their unaffiliated, non-attending counterparts.

    Source: Pew Research Center: The Religious Dimensions of the Torture Debate
    CONCLUSION: CNN reporter and editor are partisan hacks.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    The only thing laughable here is yours, and others, desperate hysterics suggesting that Stalin was not an atheist and his purge of religion and destruction of churches was just the act of someone devoid of theism and not an atheist; which of course are one and the same.
    Your feeble attacking of strawmen is truly amusing. First you misrepresent my position by substituting "someone" for "something" in my argument and now this? I have never claimed Stalin was not an atheist. Keep up the good work, champ.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    He's President, not Emperor. It's a law, he has not choice until Congress repeals it. Why hasn't that idiot Pelosi done something about it?
    Don't play dumb. We both know that there are measures Obama can take to make sure the Patriot Act is not abused.
    "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." - Gandhi

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Your emotional hysterics on the subject suggest otherwise; I will take your word for it.



    There is a reason these methods were called “enhanced.”

    The definition of torture is clear; “severe physical or mental distress.”

    Here is the dictionary version off the internet:

    Main Entry: torture
    Pronunciation: \ ˈtȯr-chər \
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquēre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drāhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
    Date: 1540
    Results

    1 a. anguish of body or mind : agony b. something that causes agony or pain

    2. the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
    3. distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining


    http://www.referencecenter.com/ref/d...&query=torture

    Here let me pull the UN Convention definition:

    UN Convention Against Torture
    I don’t see anything here that suggests that torture is Tubub says it means.



    Of course you don’t know; because based on your farcical arguments here, you think we are dealing with common cases of evidence.

    READ the synopsis I gave you slower; there is NO “traditional” evidence to prosecute these animals with. They were captured by coalition troops or intelligence agencies not in the act of any crimes, but while being associated with the terrorists we are fighting.

    That is why prisons like Gitmo exit and why the Bush Administration CORRECTLY wanted to use “tribunals.”

    Giving the access to civil courts and Constitutional protections is beyond stupid; but this is the argument of the Liberals.



    I quote your exact words:

    QUOTE=Tubub "I think terrorists caught in Iraq and Afghanistan should be brought to justice without reverting to animalistic techniques."

    Again, your OINION is hardly a substitute for relevance and facts. FACT; the US does not treat ANYONE with animalistic techniques; that is offensive beyond the pale and indicates someone more prone to emotional hysterics than facts.



    Good lord dude, you have every idea but not completely informed?



    How do you KNOW US soldiers have tortured their charges? Because you say so? Because you HEARD it from the ACLU speculations on the subject? Because you HEARD it from the Red Cross speculations on the subject?

    You’re kidding me right? With such asinine assertions, I suggest that you correct your politically confused registration and make it “Democrat.”



    What can one say here but; you’re kidding me right? You think this is a credible story with a credible case regarding the Patriot and your warped perceptions about your civil rights being abused?

    Once more, I suggest that you correct your politically confused registration and make it “Democrat.”

    mhmmm... i read the comment and it is loaded. So I'll break it down for you

    1- I always pour emotions into arguements. I also have a tendency to argue a lot, probably based on the fact I like to argue....since you wanted to know

    2- Yeah, it is very clear why they are called enhanced: Because beaucratic pussies are being politically safe. John Yoo and his butt pirate friends bend laws and regulations to their will, enhanced could mean anything he reconstructs it to mean. Maybe it means they are better or newer techniques. Maybe it means they are quicker. Maybe it is just a pseudonym for "torture". No? Fine, pretend that since the US is commiting it it is no longer torture, but keep in mind we prosecuted Japanese soldiers as war criminals after WWII for waterboarding.

    3- Really? So waterboarding, cold cell, or long time standing do not cause any mental or physical distress?

    The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

    Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours.

    The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.
    I take back everything I said. This cannot be torture, actually IT SOUNDS LIKE FUN! WOOHHH I WANNA BE WATERBOARDED!!!

    Wow, you really think this is the first war with scant evidence available to prosecute suspects? And that is what they are, SUSPECTS. Lets go beyond the fact that torturing suspects is completely immoral and enlighten the simple fact that torture has provided no actionable intelligence. Okay, okay that's arguable. How about this: Torture has been far more counterproductive than it has been productive. I don't know if you understand that winning over the people in Iraq or Afghanistan is essentially the key to winning the war. If you have instances like Abu Gahraib, the first battle of Fallujah, or the simple fact that the US tortures, you really think muslim men on the sidelines are going to be supportive of US influence? The US MUST exude a positive image. I guess you have learned no lessons, the most simple being that the US cannot win the War on Terror solely through force. (Torture isn't needed anyway, there are other methods used that are just as effective but not as immoral)

    Why do we need to use tribunals? We have a perfectly good court system that can prosecute enemies of the state. If we want to emit an image of the ideal free state and democracy, then we don't go back to military tribunals to try enemies. Even if they are enemies and not criminals... you clearly don't comprehend the complete political picture and impact.

    "Beyond stupid"... Pretty soon you'll want to cut their heads off. No, we're the guys that aren't nuts and don't cut people's heads off. We believe in human rights and individuals entitlement, no matter who you are. Acting overly agressive just wins them the support they'd like. But noooo, we must step down to their level of human indecency in order to fight them, right? Great logic.

    Yeah, I think I just clarified that the US has commited animalistic techniques on prisoners.

    Well let me think, how would I learn these things? Books, papers, magazines... have you ever heard of these silly things? You know, I like you so much Imma grab out Fiasco and turn to the page where he details torture that was recorded in prisons and Iraq or individual cases by soldiers. THATS HOW MUCH I LIKE YOU

    "In the following nights, detainees were kept naked, with some forced to masturbate in front of female soldiers. On November 4 a detainee was hooded and placed on a box, and had wires attacted to him that he was told could electrocute him if he stepped off the box. On the same night a CIA detainee died in custody on Tier 1B, having been beaten by the Navy SEALs who had captured him. One detainee later described to Army investigators being made to "bark like a dog, being forced to crawl on his stomach while MPs spit and urinated on him, and being struck causing nconsciousness." Investigators found it "highly probably" that his allegations were accurate" (Thomas E. Ricks, Fiasco 292)

    "'I saw the chief throw them down, put his knee in the neck and back, and grind them into the floor," one witness stated. "He would use a bullhorn and yell at them in Arabic and play heavy metal music extremely loud; they got so scared they would urinate themselves'"[anonymous soldier](Ricks, Fiasco 271)

    I can't find the page detailing a known incident where CIA agents rolled a former Iraqi general into a sleeping bag and sat on him. He subsequently suffered from a heart attack.

    "One day in the spring of 2004...[Abu Gahraib becomes a huge media story] 'What's going on' Mattis asked...A nineteen-year-old lance corporal glanced up from the television screen and told the general, 'Some assholes have just lost the war for us"'(290)

    "It was a tragic moment for a military with a long and proud heritage of treating its prisoners better than most--especially one that had come Iraq thinking itself as a liberation force, again solidly in the American tradition. During the Revolutionary war, the history David Hackett Fischer noted, Gen. George Washington had "often reminded his men that they were an army of liberty and freedom, and that the rights of humanity for which they were fighting should extent even to their enemies." This compassion toward prisoners was extended by Washington expressely in the face of the cruel British handling of American captives. Washington order Lt. Col. Samuel Blachley Webb... 'Treat them with humanity, and Let them have no reason to Complain of our Copying the brutal example of the British army in their Treatment of our unfortunate brethren'"(297)


    Article 3 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions states:
    Article 3
    In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

    1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

    To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

    (a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

    (b) Taking of hostages;

    (c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

    (d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

    2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

    An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

    The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

    The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.
    I won't even bother, this comment has taken enough time and effort.


    I'm a conservative therefore I am a realist. This is the reality of the situation, whether its told by a liberal or by a conservative. THIS is the party of the Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and Dwight Eisenhower; not Dick Cheney, John Yoo, and George W. Bush. I'm staying, you can leave.


    PS: try reading some news once in a while

    CIA torture techniques : "waterboarding"
    BBC NEWS | Americas | CIA admits waterboarding inmates
    Harsh interrogation techniques ineffective,' former FBI agent testifies - Politics AP - MiamiHerald.com
    Military's Interrogation Techniques: A History - The Atlantic Politics Channel
    FreeB.E.A.G.L.E.S.: Police Interrogation

    Try some books and documentaries too: 1- Cobra II 2- No True Glory 3- Assassin's Gate 4- No End in Sight 5-Fiasco and so on and on

    Cheers!
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

  5. #365
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I ran a fact check on this comment and couldn't find any FACTS to support them.

    Enhanced methods were indeed US Policy and they were indeed useful after 9-11 in saving American lives.

    You do remember 9-11 right?

    "Abed Hamed Mowhoush [was] a former Iraqi general beaten over days by U.S. Army, CIA and other non-military forces, stuffed into a sleeping bag, wrapped with electrical cord, and suffocated to death," Human Rights First writes. "In the recently concluded trial of a low-level military officer charged in Mowhoush's death, the officer received a written reprimand, a fine, and 60 days with his movements limited to his work, home, and church."

    That's what I was looking for. Got it a little wrong but you get the idea... Sadly I found it on Michael Moore's website

    No. What's 9-11? I have no idea what that is.

    And no, torture didn't save any lives. That can't be proved by anything, what the hell did you look up to find all the majical answers to a subjective question like that? Did you look in the bible?! It agitated Muslim youths though, I guess if thats what your aiming for. This is a crusade afterall
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
    -TR

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    "Abed Hamed Mowhoush [was] a former Iraqi general beaten over days by U.S. Army, CIA and other non-military forces, stuffed into a sleeping bag, wrapped with electrical cord, and suffocated to death," Human Rights First writes. "In the recently concluded trial of a low-level military officer charged in Mowhoush's death, the officer received a written reprimand, a fine, and 60 days with his movements limited to his work, home, and church."

    That's what I was looking for. Got it a little wrong but you get the idea... Sadly I found it on Michael Moore's website

    No. What's 9-11? I have no idea what that is.

    And no, torture didn't save any lives. That can't be proved by anything, what the hell did you look up to find all the majical answers to a subjective question like that? Did you look in the bible?! It agitated Muslim youths though, I guess if thats what your aiming for. This is a crusade afterall
    Are you Bub's brother, or just a second Bub?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    I usually find the religious tortuous

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Cummon, folks, it says right there in Leviticus:

    "Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee. And whosoever weareth turbans of mixed fibers shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because they are not free. Bring those who trespass unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the prison, and there you will strip them naked and stack them like legos. Set upon their flesh with snapping teeth of unclean dogs and immerse them in freezing water. Beseige their nostrils with water until their lungs fill as if the Red Sea, and conduct lightning to their genitals. Arrange their bodies as if induging in hot, sweaty man sex, and when they cry out "no more" the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be aforgiven him.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Cummon, folks, it says right there in Leviticus:

    "Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee. And whosoever weareth turbans of mixed fibers shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because they are not free. Bring those who trespass unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the prison, and there you will strip them naked and stack them like legos. Set upon their flesh with snapping teeth of unclean dogs and immerse them in freezing water. Beseige their nostrils with water until their lungs fill as if the Red Sea, and conduct lightning to their genitals. Arrange their bodies as if induging in hot, sweaty man sex, and when they cry out "no more" the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be aforgiven him.
    Sounds like a great night out lackers.

    Is it members only, or can you pay on the door

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by B L Zeebub View Post
    Sounds like a great night out lackers.

    Is it members only, or can you pay on the door
    Promise the bouncer some special favors and you're in.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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