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Thread: Religious tend to support torture more often

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Are you sure it doesn't make them secular? nice try though.
    Atheist = secular unless you're claiming that atheism is a religion.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Atheist = secular unless you're claiming that atheism is a religion.
    That's called pwnage.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by EgoffTib View Post
    I have no idea what Obama's stance is on the Patriot Act. It would appear he cannot have that much of a problem with it, since it remains in effect and is being abused under his watch.
    He's President, not Emperor. It's a law, he has not choice until Congress repeals it. Why hasn't that idiot Pelosi done something about it?
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    I was curious, so I had a closer look at this poll to see if the CNN article was correct. The Pew Research Center states in their publication that "statistical analysis that simultaneously examines correlations between views on torture, partisanship, ideology and demographic variables (including religion, education, race, etc.) finds that party and ideology are much better predictors of views on torture than are religion and most other demographic factors." Now, the CNN article simply states that "The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey", which tends to give the impression that those who are more religious support torture simply because they are religious.

    When I looked at the actual numbers, I discovered the following:



    As you can see, 15% of those who are religiously unaffiliated supported torture as "often justified", which is the exact same percentage as those who are "White Mainline Protestents". However, the sample size for unaffiliated is only 94 people, as opposed to those who are mainline protestants or Catholics (with sample sizes of 150 and 122 respectively). It's highly possible that the unaffiliated percentage would rise if sample size was increased. In addition, the "White Mainline Protestant" group percentage which said that torture can NEVER be justified is greater than the unaffiliated group. Even if the sample size for the unaffiliated religious was increased, it's unknown if this would exceed the percentage of mainline Protestants.

    Based on this, I think the CNN article is misleading. Look at the percentage of attendence, and compare it to respective sample sizes. 25% of 336 people who attend church regularly claim that torture is never justified - that's what, 84 people? Among those who rarely or never attend, the percentage is almost exactly the same - 26%, or 43 people.

    My guess is that if sample size were increased among the seldom attendees, you'd probably see more of a statistical similarity. But I invite you to look at the numbers and judge for yourself.

    Personally, I think those who are religious support torture no more or less than their unaffiliated, non-attending counterparts.

    Source: Pew Research Center: The Religious Dimensions of the Torture Debate
    Last edited by Singularity; 05-12-09 at 12:07 AM.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I was curious, so I had a closer look at this poll to see if the CNN article was correct. The Pew Research Center states in their publication that "statistical analysis that simultaneously examines correlations between views on torture, partisanship, ideology and demographic variables (including religion, education, race, etc.) finds that party and ideology are much better predictors of views on torture than are religion and most other demographic factors." Now, the CNN article simply states that "The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey", which tends to give the impression that those who are more religious support torture simply because they are religious.

    When I looked at the actual numbers, I discovered the following:



    As you can see, 15% of those who are religiously unaffiliated supported torture as "often justified", which is the exact same percentage as those who are "White Mainline Protestents". However, the sample size for unaffiliated is only 94 people, as opposed to those who are mainline protestants or Catholics (with sample sizes of 150 and 122 respectively). It's highly possible that the unaffiliated percentage would rise if sample size was increased. In addition, the "White Mainline Protestant" group percentage which said that torture can NEVER be justified is greater than the unaffiliated group. Even if the sample size for the unaffiliated religious was increased, it's unknown if this would exceed the percentage of mainline Protestants.

    Based on this, I think the CNN article is misleading. Look at the percentage of attendence, and compare it to respective sample sizes. 25% of 336 people who attend church regularly claim that torture is never justified - that's what, 84 people? Among those who rarely or never attend, the percentage is almost exactly the same - 26%, or 43 people.

    My guess is that if sample size were increased among the seldom attendees, you'd probably see more of a statistical similarity. But I invite you to look at the numbers and judge for yourself.

    Personally, I think those who are religious support torture no more or less than their unaffiliated, non-attending counterparts.

    Source: Pew Research Center: The Religious Dimensions of the Torture Debate
    Really nice research for a liberal.

    Thanks good stuff and greatly appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Obviously you are clueless about what the Patriot Act contains asserting that Spitzer’s illegal use of State Police to spy on political opponents is somehow proper use of the patriot Act.

    Here's the entire act; read it and become informed. It is not applicable for any communications within the US between citizens.

    USA PATRIOT Act (H.R. 3162)

    It cannot be applied against any US citizen without a proper warrant and it cannot be enforced unless there is an obvious connection with terrorist organizations operating OUTSIDE of the US.



    Do you believe that someone plotting terror against US citizens has a right to privacy?



    Nothing but Hyperbolic nonsense here. It is obvious you are allowing your hyper partisanship and emotions here rather than engaging your brains.



    Once again this is begging a point and the question; what methods?

    You mean that of taking non-uniformed terrorists trying to murder our troops into captivity in prisons like Gitmo because NORMAL rule of law doesn't apply to them?

    Do you honestly believe that terrorists caught in foreign lands in battles fighting with our troops can be prosecuted using normal criminal law proceedings and evidentiary rules? What evidence do you think is available to prosecute them as common criminals?

    What is obvious from the naive mentality of those making such naive and engaging in such emotional hysterics is that they truly have no comprehension of what we are dealing with here.

    Government: "Well your honor, we caught this guy with an AK47 in the battle of Faluja. "

    His honor: "is there any evidence that he used the rifle to kill US troops?"

    Government: "No your honor. He was captured in the heat of battle but we cannot attribute any particular death to him."

    His honor: "Not guilty for lack of evidence. NEXT case!"

    Once more it begs the question; where beyond the typical emotional hysterics of the Liberals is there any credible evidence that ANYONE has had their rights removed or suppressed by this act?

    The answer is as obvious as the nose on your face; NONE!

    Obviously, you didn't properly read that comment... "pants down". I'm not talking about Spitzer using police, I'm talking about him getting caught spending 10s of thousands of dollars on hookers.

    No, actually I don't believe terrorists have a right to privacy. I have a right to privacy. I rather keep my freedom and not blur the line between who's who in this conflict, thankyou.

    I'm a registered Republican.

    I'll give you one method: Waterboarding. Waterboarding has always been considered torture, why you ask? Because it is. It fits every definition of the word. A man like McCain, who was a victim of waterboarding, won't hesitate to tell you that it is torture. You really are making me much more of an antagonist than I am....

    I don't even know what your talking about. Terrorists trying to murder soldiers in GITMO? Of course normal rule of law does not apply to them, nor did it to German POW's in WWII yet we didn't waterboard them.

    No. Stop putting words in my mouth. My case is this: Torture is wrong. The US has methods of interrogation that are effective and does not need to use torture, which has never provided any vital and actionable intelligence anyway. Should terrorists be treated like human beings? Yes. Remember what country this is.

    Actually, I have every idea of what we're dealing with here. I am not completely informed on this particular subject of torture, but you don't seem so enlightened in it either. I'm willing to hear an arguement, and have not made up mind completely... but I do know the US has engaged in torture in GITMO and in countless prison camps in Afghanistan and Iraq. I also know that the Federal government has had substantial extension of powers.... you ever hear of the burning of the Reichstag?

    I don't even know what you mean by this. Unless they are a very high profile terrorist in Fallujah, and therefore there would be evidence for a case, then no insurgent in Fallujah would be put in front of a US court(not to mention Fallujah is in Iraqi hands these days and one of the most successful cities in Iraq). Iraqi men are entitled one weapon per household. Actually, I think they stretched that old rule.

    Mom says Patriot Act stripped son of due process :: WRAL.com
    Last edited by Tubub; 05-12-09 at 02:01 AM.
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    How do you think Eliot Spitzer was caught pants down? Patriot Act. The Patriot Act allows the government to listen in on phone calls, e-mails, and several other channels of communication as well as allowing agents to write their own warrants. That kind of destroys the purpose of a warrant, no?

    Right to privacy is infringed upon everyday.

    I think terrorists caught in Iraq and Afghanistan should be brought to justice without reverting to animalistic techniques. America has somehow survived for more than 2 centuries and against countless enemies without using these methods, why do we need to start now? And I am very conservative on foreign policy, just not on the issue of torture.... It is counterproductive to the War on Terror
    Your first paragraph was right on target.

    Let me bounce some thoughts and ideas off ya TuBub and tell me what you think.

    I remember years ago, when the Patriot Act was first coming about, I predicted this almost exact same scenerio, (players unknown at the time,) and lo' and behold, here we are. I would give a dollar bill if I could find that old post of mine. But I digress. But, in a perfect world, we could trust our government to keep the covert intel gathered protected and confidential. Especially any information gathered that was not related to terrorism. But it was inevitable that this would find all forms of abuse.

    But in our collective paranoid zeal, to exterminate the terrorists hiding under our bed, some thought it was a small sacrifice to just piss away our rights. Did those terrorists win?

    I used to get rubbed raw when the extremo-neo-cons would reply, "If you got nothing to hide you shouldn't mind the government tapping your phones and rifiling through your personal affairs. After all, it's for the good of the country! You socialist liberals just don't "get it!"

    Myself, I am all for going to the Nth degree to protect our children and neighbors against all foes. Truthfully, I admit that I don't know the "real deal" of how the torture thing went down under Bush. I know what we all hear and read. But I wasn't there. And if they did torture those "detainees" and it saved one child's life anywhere in the world, I really don't care. Maybe I need psychological counciling.

    Que for a Seinfeld quote: "Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't have feelings. I feel real bad that I don't care. But, I don't care.

    Regarding the part of your post I bolded:

    I would not bet a plug nickel in that statement. I know I would like to believe that the US has always been above such tactics of barbarism, after all, in our own self-rightous glory, our country is above such conduct. After all, we ARE America. Right? Right.

    In the past 200 years, long before 24/7 news channels and media moguls, with powerful influence, was calling all the shots, I wouldn't doubt for a minute that our government has dabbled in a little bit of enhanced intelligence gathering over the past 200 years. We just never heard about it. It was much easier to stick out our chests and hold our chins high as we beamed with our American pride.

    I just don't buy it bro.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I would not bet a plug nickel in that statement. I know I would like to believe that the US has always been above such tactics of barbarism, after all, in our own self-rightous glory, our country is above such conduct. After all, we ARE America. Right? Right.

    In the past 200 years, long before 24/7 news channels and media moguls, with powerful influence, was calling all the shots, I wouldn't doubt for a minute that our government has dabbled in a little bit of enhanced intelligence gathering over the past 200 years. We just never heard about it. It was much easier to stick out our chests and hold our chins high as we beamed with our American pride.

    I just don't buy it bro.
    IT was never justified or made US policy. The argument usually is that we face a stateless enemy and torture is needed to garner intelligence that will be used to locate and apprehend terrorist leaders yada yada yada. I'm sure there were cases of torture in America's past but nothing like this.
    “Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.”
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    I'm a registered Republican.
    Your emotional hysterics on the subject suggest otherwise; I will take your word for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    I'll give you one method: Waterboarding. Waterboarding has always been considered torture, why you ask? Because it is. It fits every definition of the word. A man like McCain, who was a victim of waterboarding, won't hesitate to tell you that it is torture. You really are making me much more of an antagonist than I am....
    There is a reason these methods were called “enhanced.”

    The definition of torture is clear; “severe physical or mental distress.”

    Here is the dictionary version off the internet:

    Main Entry: torture
    Pronunciation: \ ˈtȯr-chər \
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle French, from Old French, from Late Latin tortura, from Latin tortus, past participle of torquēre to twist; probably akin to Old High German drāhsil turner, Greek atraktos spindle
    Date: 1540
    Results

    1 a. anguish of body or mind : agony b. something that causes agony or pain

    2. the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
    3. distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining


    http://www.referencecenter.com/ref/d...&query=torture

    Here let me pull the UN Convention definition:

    Part I
    Article 1
    1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
    2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.


    UN Convention Against Torture
    I don’t see anything here that suggests that torture is Tubub says it means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    I don't even know what your talking about. Terrorists trying to murder soldiers in GITMO? Of course normal rule of law does not apply to them, nor did it to German POW's in WWII yet we didn't waterboard them.
    Of course you don’t know; because based on your farcical arguments here, you think we are dealing with common cases of evidence.

    READ the synopsis I gave you slower; there is NO “traditional” evidence to prosecute these animals with. They were captured by coalition troops or intelligence agencies not in the act of any crimes, but while being associated with the terrorists we are fighting.

    That is why prisons like Gitmo exit and why the Bush Administration CORRECTLY wanted to use “tribunals.”

    Giving the access to civil courts and Constitutional protections is beyond stupid; but this is the argument of the Liberals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    No. Stop putting words in my mouth. My case is this: Torture is wrong. The US has methods of interrogation that are effective and does not need to use torture, which has never provided any vital and actionable intelligence anyway. Should terrorists be treated like human beings? Yes. Remember what country this is.
    I quote your exact words:

    QUOTE=Tubub "I think terrorists caught in Iraq and Afghanistan should be brought to justice without reverting to animalistic techniques."

    Again, your OINION is hardly a substitute for relevance and facts. FACT; the US does not treat ANYONE with animalistic techniques; that is offensive beyond the pale and indicates someone more prone to emotional hysterics than facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    Actually, I have every idea of what we're dealing with here. I am not completely informed on this particular subject of torture
    Good lord dude, you have every idea but not completely informed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    I'm willing to hear an arguement, and have not made up mind completely... but I do know the US has engaged in torture in GITMO and in countless prison camps in Afghanistan and Iraq. I also know that the Federal government has had substantial extension of powers.... you ever hear of the burning of the Reichstag?
    How do you KNOW US soldiers have tortured their charges? Because you say so? Because you HEARD it from the ACLU speculations on the subject? Because you HEARD it from the Red Cross speculations on the subject?

    You’re hardly willing to HEAR any arguments; your just gullibly swallowing the Leftist swill being dished out about Liberal notions of what is torture without even comprehending they are for purely hyper partisan purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    I also know that the Federal government has had substantial extension of powers.... you ever hear of the burning of the Reichstag?
    You’re kidding me right? With such asinine assertions, I suggest that you correct your politically confused registration and make it “Democrat.”

    What can one say here but; you’re kidding me right? You think this is a credible story with a credible case regarding the Patriot and your warped perceptions about your civil rights being abused?

    Once more, I suggest that you correct your politically confused registration and make it “Democrat.”

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubub View Post
    IT was never justified or made US policy. The argument usually is that we face a stateless enemy and torture is needed to garner intelligence that will be used to locate and apprehend terrorist leaders yada yada yada. I'm sure there were cases of torture in America's past but nothing like this.
    I ran a fact check on this comment and couldn't find any FACTS to support them.

    Enhanced methods were indeed US Policy and they were indeed useful after 9-11 in saving American lives.

    You do remember 9-11 right?

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