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Thread: Religious tend to support torture more often

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Talloulou, not to sweep the rug out from under you, but I agree with what Jerry originally said... although I think I had a different reading of it than you.

    I interpreted it as... people without religion often lack the righteous black/white incentive to condone torture according to their beliefs. Religion provides a pretty clear clut moral compass (i.e. the Bible), whereas if you are not religious you have to actually think for yourself. The non-religious would be given pause at the idea of torture whereas the religious, if their scriptures condone it or even support it, would not have to hesitate because their scriptures decide the issue for them.

    Hence... if you are non-religious the moral issue might be more muddled because some book or higher authority is not making it so black and white.

    In general though, I find religion pretty immoral and the most morally balanced people I have come across have been non-religious.
    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I guess I could see the merit in that point except that the Bible, like many religious books, is full of contradictions allowing a wide degree of interpretation. I think a person who valued their own inner moral compass above that of a controversial contradictory book would have an easier time just doing what they felt was right vs worrying over deciphering some age old text to find some guidance on a modern age dilemma.
    Religion is a key agent of socialization which helps one develop their moral cumpis.

    All things being equal, not having that agent of socialization renders one less developed than someone with religion.

    All notions that the typical religious person relies on a book to give their morality to them are fallacious at best. Also, the notion that the many contradictions in the bible somehow invalidate it are equally irrelevant.

    The bible is a tool, like any text book. Referring back to it is no different, I repeat, NO different than referring back to a source or reference in any debate.

    ***
    As a tangent: If the bible can be interpreted however one chooses, then all interpretations rationalizing unethical actions are the fault of the interpreter, not an inanimate book.

    Neither do guns kill people or my keyboard misspell words.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-06-09 at 02:24 PM.

  2. #222
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Oh pul-ease... I believe that's more about keeping them from getting an abortion than caring about them. What kind of help are they offered once they leave? Do you give them financial support? Free medical for the mother and baby? If so, for how long, if not, why not?


    So you can proselytize to them.


    Blah, it's all so you can proselytize and nothing more.


    Again, so you can proselytize. You don't do anything without that string attached which means it's not genuine.

    You want a free meal? You gotta take the pamphlet, or sit and listen to the wonders of your religion...
    You obviously know NOTHING of the charity that the Catholic Church performs.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Dude, in this entire thread there are several leftists doing their best to characterize Christianity in general, and evangelicals in particular, as bloodly-minded ghouls who would be glad to torture infidels to bloody rags until they convert, confess, or whatever.
    And there are others who are doing their best to characterize the non-religious tyrants with atheists and leftists as people who want to sit and sing songs while the terrorists saw someones head off. Of course you don't have any rant for them, eh...

    I think some one has us confused with Islamic extremists. I've heard people making that very comparison often enough to be tired of it. Militant atheists act like we want to institute theocracy and burn heretics at the stake if we dare suggest that maybe, just maybe, it wouldn't hurt anyone to allow a voluntary bible study class in public schools?
    Yeah, it's all about getting your way but the opposition to that are all militant atheists. I'm tired of that...

    I'm tired of having to point out that there's a huge difference between Christian "fundamentalists", whose worst "offenses" are they oppose gay marriage and abortion; and Islamic fundamentalists, who spawn dozens of suicide bombers and worse every year.
    Yeah, thank the progressives for toning down your religion because it used to spawn the medieval equivolent of suicide bombers....

    So the US waterboarded some known terrorists. We also waterboard our own soldiers in SERE training. This is not the same "torture" as that word typically evokes, images of saws and blades, knives and severed body parts.
    What an intellectually dishonest statement not to mention that the comparative has pretty much been bebunked, but like you righties and especially you Con-xians are known for, you will continue to use fallacious arguments.

    Cry some more please because I really enjoy hearing a majority claim that the minority is oppressing them.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Obviously, history's mass murderers outrank the Catholic Church in body count.
    I disagree... the reasons are vastly different. Well, at least in debate because it all revolves around power but the religious claim their deeds in gods favor while the non-religious claim their deeds for various purposes.

    Not only that but if you count the OT as part of the xian religion, which it is if it's the same god as they claim, then you can include the wars in the bible as well as all the wars where a cross was held aloft.
    Last edited by Slippery Slope; 05-06-09 at 02:58 PM.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Why then even mention genuine mental disorder at all?
    Because you asserted a premise which stated that my ethical soundness of mind was more in question due to my lack of religion.

    Why do religious folks oppose abortion: because we hate women.
    I'd love to see where I've ever said that.

    Why do religious folks oppose gay marriage: because we hate gays.
    I've accused individuals of hating gays, but not religious groups.

    Why do religious folks support torture: because we're clinically insane (according to you).
    If that's what you think I said then you missed the point, the words, and everything in between.


    If mental instability was not your best argument, then why lead with it? You straw-man yourself.
    You put forth the premise that religion leads to a more ethically sound mind, Jer. Go read back. The ONLY thing I did was call b.s.

    As for the poll, I've said I don't put much stake in it.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Religion is a key agent of socialization which helps one develop their moral cumpis.'
    Sure it can be, but it is not necessary. To say I have an underdeveloped moral compass because I'm irreligious is unvalidated rot.

    All things being equal, not having that agent of socialization renders one less developed than someone with religion.
    Then that assertion should be easy to prove. Go ahead, support the claim.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I think we just oughta "man-up" and put this torture crap to rest.

    Did we torture these guys? Damn right we did.

    Is it the image we want to portray to the world as the "American way?" Probably not. But on the other hand, it might be.

    It was once said, "Walk softly and carry a big stick."

    When it's not enough to be the breadbasket of the world, donating huge portions of our tax dollars to foreign humanitarian causes, leading the globe in civilized negotiations and arbitrations, and still a faction of humanity thinks we deserve to have thousands of our people burning and falling out of high rise buildings and from the skies, I say "screw them."

    Waterboarding? Wah, wah, wah......

    If it will save one American life, I got no problem with them pulling their fingernails out or staking them to a Texas anthill.

    I'd prefer to be the country everybody loves and respects. I think as far as global benevolency goes, we do ok. But money can't buy you love. So, if all the "peace, love and understanding (and money) " approach don't work then whip out the big stick.

    I know that the stats are against me on this one. There are a lot of valid arguments and facts that go against "enhanced" intelligence gathering. Even my brother, who is in the business, says torture is counter productive.

    But still, I can't muster any sympathy for these "detainees." I guess I'm the odd man out on this one. I could care less if they diced them, sliced them, and julianne fried them.

    I'll work on it.

    Oh yes.....

    I am not a church-go-er in the slightest. Don't hang ths on the religious nuts.

    Just man up and say", "Hell yeah we did it! And we're gonna do it again, you smelly bastards, if we have to!"

    I could live with that.
    Yeah, and throw away the moral high ground and get down in the dirt with the EXTREME MINORITY in the world that wishes us harm because of our actions... I mean the other actions than the ones you listed above. You know, the raping of resources, exploitation of their poor/uneducated people, invading their country for no good reason, conducting covert operations to destablize their governments, inciting revolutions, supporting tyrants, bullying them to do what is best for us... Ah, what the hell, maybe if we saw a few heads off, that extreme minority will respect us more... forget about how that will affect our standing with the majority of the world because, like any bully, you can only see the easy targets and not the consequences.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I see you are labeled "very liberal". That's accurate. You're practically a walking cliche.
    If you think that arabic countries, with Muslim governments and law, living under sharia, are morally equivalent to the USA, then go live in one for a year and tell us how you enjoyed it.
    Take the whole family! Your womenfolks can know the joy of not being able to go outdoors without wearing a tent-dress and a veil; of not being allowed to speak to any man they aren't related to without their husband present; in some countries, of being stoned to death for the crime of learning to read.

    Tell them about the joys of atheism! I'm sure they'll be facinated, and you can tell us how they respected your right to free speech... assuming they don't cut off your head.
    He made no moral equivalency. This is a strawman... talk about a walking cliche. Your rant has absolutely ZERO to do with anything he said in that post.

    All nations and cultures are NOT morally equal. Has the US made some foreign policy blunders in the mideast over the past several decades? Sure.
    He didn't make a moral equivillancy claim. We've done a LOT more than "some foreign policy blunders in the mideast over the past several decades"

    That doesn't earn us the label of "as bad or worse than the terrorists" that Leftists have been trying to hang on us for years.
    Another strawman. Boy, you're batting 1000 in this post. No one said we are as bad as the terrorists... but bad is bad enough.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I'm perfectly aware of what a straw man argument is.
    Oh so you did it out of pure, premeditated dishonesty eh?

    My point is that this "we brought it on ourselves" argument begins with an assumption of moral equivalency for all nations and cultures.
    No it doesn't.

    An assumption that our actions in the mideast were equivalent to terrorist actions against the US, and with it the fundamental assumption that "we're no better than they are", and that US policy justified the 9/11 attacks.
    These are incongruent ideas.

    "We brought it on ourselves" is typically a far-left argument.
    Well, it's a reality based argument. If you abuse people long enough they may just take a swing at you.

    Granted, we made some mistakes.
    Why not just go whole hog and say maybe we made A mistake but it was so minor that I'm surprised anyone even noticed. Then in no time you can just claim we never made any mistakes.

    Supporting the Shah of Iran was probably one, but I doubt the Ayatolla Khomeini would have been a US ally even if we'd helped him with his coup. They're just too radical.
    This just goes to show that you haven't aclue what you are talking about. I suggest you go read some history on that period of our involvement with Iran.

    Others who make that argument above often cite our support for Israel as sufficient cause for them to attack us. That's another argument I don't accept; it makes it sound like we should treat an ally and someone who hates us as one and the same.
    Again, you lack a fundamental understanding of the relationship and our actions in support of Israel.

    The Islamofascists such as Al-Q and Achmadinijahd of Iran have stated their goal many times; it is "to put the entire world under the Caliphate and Sharia."
    I just love it when the righties tell us how fearful our country of 300 million +, thousands of miles away, with the worlds biggest and most advanced military, should not only fear but take as a real threat and cow tow to the a couple of nut jobs. "Osama says the fight is in Iraq so we better stay there, because he said so"... it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

    We're non-Islamic and powerful...we would have been in their line of fire sooner or later.
    Yeah, that's why they hate us...

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    You obviously know NOTHING of the charity that the Catholic Church performs.
    Catholic Charities USA - The Home is the Foundation
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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