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Thread: Religious tend to support torture more often

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Stalin was a communist, and therefore a leftist. He was the biggest bully that ever lived.
    I don't think you can even compare foreign ideologues with the American political system. Would you want to hear that Hitler and Pol Pot were rightwing conservatives? It's just not fair, like comparing apples to ball bearings.
    Besides, Stalin is villified not for being a Communist, but for becoming a Fascist dictator. If he had simply been a Communist leader, he wouldn't be in the Pantheon of Evil.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I don't think you can even compare foreign ideologues with the American political system. Would you want to hear that Hitler and Pol Pot were rightwing conservatives? It's just not fair, like comparing apples to ball bearings.
    Besides, Stalin is villified not for being a Communist, but for becoming a Fascist dictator. If he had simply been a Communist leader, he wouldn't be in the Pantheon of Evil.
    You don't know what you are responding to.
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    You don't know what you are responding to.

    I responded to your quote, is that not clear?

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Wessex, it could just as easily have been the other way around. The traditions and moral teachings of scriptures didn't just appear from thin air, humans had to commit them to writing. Morality and a sense of right and wrong probably existed before humans could even write them down. It's a case of the chicken and the egg. You claim that scripture guides morality, but I believe morality is what formed scripture. It is just organized morality that calls on specific doctrines to be practiced in order to provide the framework for adhering to certain moral ideas; however, these moral ideas don't require scripture to exist, as is evidenced by Atheists being benign.
    Firstly I did not maintain that scripture guides morality simply that shared belief is necessary and this requires some sort of organic, gradual growth to be most healthy and stable.

    Secondly I don't believe Atheists are necessarily most benign, in fact I think those Atheistic, statist regimes that have attacked the traditional belief systems of their nation root and branch have been among the worst regimes ever. The Inquisition pales in comparison to Stalin and he attempted to up root almost all past shared belief and insert new ones mainly with the state as the principal agent of shared effort and drive.

    I don't need to be taught not to murder because God will be mad at me. It's enough for me not to kill another person because it causes pain and suffering, and it's not something I'd want done to me. Besides, the first half of the ten commandments are mostly talking about how jealous God is and how you better not worship anyone else. I don't want my children learning from that. Or in the Korean it tells people to strike down infidels who don't teach others scripture... what the hell? I don't want my kid learning to hate people who are different than he/she is. And don't get me started on Judaism, saying that women should take a special bath when they're on their period because they are dirty and Elohim wants them to be clean.

    Ugh... it's so primitive I can hardly stand it. Upholding tradition for tradition's sake is not a good reason in of itself. People need to think on their own and decide what is worth holding on to, instead of living in fear that some person in the sky (who, by any modern secular definition, is completely nuts) is going to punish them for all eternity. People need to stop relying on the invisible parent/authority in the sky and start parenting themselves.
    No, society requires some sort of shared belief system and authority to even be considered a society and have any kind of health and stability. It is best when this is achieved through the small-scale, everyday associations of life attuning the individual to the goals of the larger society.

    Morality is complex, it is certainly good if the individual can achieve some of his own judgments, that is what makes him a human being but as a human being his faculties are also limited and he can't he expected to come to all the values and rules that guide him himself, that is what society is for to a degree. So he draws on the accumulated, organic growth of his traditional moral and spiritual belief system, the many centuries of experience of coming to terms with the complex moral and spiritual aspects of existence which provides him with that a priori platform for his own achievable moral actions. So tradition, in this sense the tradition of a major religion, is not being appealed to for its own sake but simply because it is the centuries of grasping for moral and spiritual truth within the rather organic framework somewhat related to an individual's own society.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 05-06-09 at 11:27 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I don't think you can even compare foreign ideologues with the American political system. Would you want to hear that Hitler and Pol Pot were rightwing conservatives? It's just not fair, like comparing apples to ball bearings.
    Besides, Stalin is villified not for being a Communist, but for becoming a Fascist dictator. If he had simply been a Communist leader, he wouldn't be in the Pantheon of Evil.
    His extreme Marxist-Leninism is to a degree undetachable from his actions.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I responded to your quote, is that not clear?
    It's clear that you don't know what you are responding to.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Hitler wasn't right wing, that's a farce that easily fooled people fall for. "Hitler killed people and wanted war! Right Wingers support the military! Hitler was RIGHT WING!!!"
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Could you possibly in more insulting or ignorant of Christians?
    Could you be any more insulting or ignorant in your rant?


    What I find most fascinating, is that those most likely to protest "torture" also tend to support abortion and are against the Death Penalty. Hang on, I'm making a point here.
    No you're not, you're just ranting like a little girl. Torture, abortion and the death penalty are not in anyway comparable with each other.

    WARNGING the following contain: General rule here folks, if it doesn't apply to you personally, good for you.
    A disclaimer you should keep in mind and apply to yourself too.

    Which makes you wonder really, where the true face of evil is here.
    Look in the mirror and and ask that.

    On one side, you have pro-life, pro-enhanced interrogation, pro-death penalty religious folks who believe innocent life trumps all.
    No, on one side you have anti-abortion, pro-torture, pro death penalty religious folk who don't care who don't really care about whether someone is innocent or not. They are vengeful bullys who are willing to kill and torture, oppress and dictate whenever and wherever it's convenient.

    And the other side of the coin, those who believe that innocent life is expendable.
    Strawman. What is an innocent life? How about animals, aren't they innocent? So what if you destroy their habitat to log and create wood and paper products or drill for fossil fuels that could be made out of other, more available, sustainable and renewable plants, they're just animals right?


    Yeah, "it's just a lump of cells".
    Stem cells are just a lump of cells. Just because the religious nuts want to call it a person doesn't make it so.
    "We cannot put him to death, what if he is innocent??"
    I thought your kind cared about innocent life? Like I said above, only when it's convenient.

    2.21 recidivism rate of killers means 2.1 people will die.
    Yeah, how many people will die from drunk drivers who have one or more DUIs on their record? How many people will die from slipping in the bath tub in a year? You only give a rats ass about a statistic that you can use to bash someone with, eh? Sure.
    "we cannot torture people to get information that saves lives. That's immoral! It's better we do not torture and people die, at least our values will be intact!"
    Right, and your kinds opinion is that we should sink to the level of the worst people in the world for a little vengence and take pleasure in it, because there's the possibility that in some TV show fantasy a ticking time bomb could be stopped in time to save millions of people...

    All of you lefties that have your panties in a wad because W used some enhanced techniques to save possibly, yes even your life, innocent peoples lives...
    It's called torture, always has been and always will be. You can continue to call a pig a swan but it only shows your deceptive nature. You have no problem saying that we should torture when necessary to save "innocent lives" but once it's done you have to call it "enhanced interrogation techniques", why is that? Probably because you are ashamed and you should be.

    You people scare me. I mean that. You berate religious folks for supporting "torture" yet you ignore the reality of the world around you.
    Well, that's the bully's shtick, right? Use fear to get your way... everyone needs to be afraid so we can do whatever we tell you will protect you. It's right htere in the bible right? You're supposed to be gof fearing. Fear the wrath of god, be afraid that you'll go to hell, be afraid that some other religion will come and steal your precious bible from you, be afraid that hordes of backward thinking no resource muslims will find a way to sneak thousands of miles across oceans to kill YOU!! Be afraid the liberals are out to get you! Be afraid Harry Potter will teach your children to become witches... BOOO!!!

    Xians ought to pay a lot more attention to the message of Jesus instead of trying to cobbling various pieces of scripture together to make a case for doing the opposite, when convenient. Xians, especially evangelicals and hard righties tend to be hypocrits who hide behind their interpretation of scripture to make themselves feel better and to have a defense for the opinions they hold or the actions they take.

    You people claim you are better because you don't believe in religion,
    Not better, just more intellectually honest.

    yet you cannot face the reality there are some REALLY nasty people out that WOULD saw your head off if they got their hands on you.
    Yeah, like the religious. More torture and head sawing and killing has taken place in the world in the name of a deity than in the name of liberalism or atheism. Unless you'd like to provide facts to the contrary... Those facts must show that atheism was the motivation.

    And who dies to save your asses? Conservative religious folks tend to populate the Armed Forces. Didn't meet too many atheist while I served.
    I'm an atheist and was so while in the military and there are plenty more. Even more who would say they believe in god but know nothing about their religion and don't go to church more than a handful of times a year if at all.

    Why do you think more conservative religious people join the military? Could it be due to education and poverty? I believe the reason is because authoritarians just love the who chain of command structure (just look how the CCCP runs, - get in line - wait your turn - don't speak out against your party - get on the same page -) With the added bonus of bullying people and if you're lucky you'll get to go kill someone of another religion.

    Do you know of any study that compares ASVAB and AFQT scores with religious preference? I don't know of one... I wonder why? Because people don't WANT that kind of stat being made public. Why?

    Hey Sally, I'm not afraid of your kind of bullying, willful ignorance and inability of the conservative mind to empathize because we all know bullys are really quite harmless when confronted. My concern however, is that there are a lot of you and in our country that equates to voting for other bullys.

    The REAL mental disorder is the one that holds back human progress. Attempts to maintain the status quo.
    You and your kind are nothing but terrorists that are too pussy to act on your insane rantings. At least the idiots that blow themselves up have real balls and true conviction, not the nudicles your kind keeps tucked between your legs.

    Yeah, there are really dangerous people out there in the world, you're one of them. Not because you have the sack to do anything but stand on a soapbox and rant but because you incite ignorant fools to do the things you couldn't possibly do yourself.

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Could you be any more insulting or ignorant in your rant?



    No you're not, you're just ranting like a little girl. Torture, abortion and the death penalty are not in anyway comparable with each other.


    A disclaimer you should keep in mind and apply to yourself too.


    Look in the mirror and and ask that.


    No, on one side you have anti-abortion, pro-torture, pro death penalty religious folk who don't care who don't really care about whether someone is innocent or not. They are vengeful bullys who are willing to kill and torture, oppress and dictate whenever and wherever it's convenient.


    Strawman. What is an innocent life? How about animals, aren't they innocent? So what if you destroy their habitat to log and create wood and paper products or drill for fossil fuels that could be made out of other, more available, sustainable and renewable plants, they're just animals right?



    Stem cells are just a lump of cells. Just because the religious nuts want to call it a person doesn't make it so.

    I thought your kind cared about innocent life? Like I said above, only when it's convenient.


    Yeah, how many people will die from drunk drivers who have one or more DUIs on their record? How many people will die from slipping in the bath tub in a year? You only give a rats ass about a statistic that you can use to bash someone with, eh? Sure.

    Right, and your kinds opinion is that we should sink to the level of the worst people in the world for a little vengence and take pleasure in it, because there's the possibility that in some TV show fantasy a ticking time bomb could be stopped in time to save millions of people...


    It's called torture, always has been and always will be. You can continue to call a pig a swan but it only shows your deceptive nature. You have no problem saying that we should torture when necessary to save "innocent lives" but once it's done you have to call it "enhanced interrogation techniques", why is that? Probably because you are ashamed and you should be.


    Well, that's the bully's shtick, right? Use fear to get your way... everyone needs to be afraid so we can do whatever we tell you will protect you. It's right htere in the bible right? You're supposed to be gof fearing. Fear the wrath of god, be afraid that you'll go to hell, be afraid that some other religion will come and steal your precious bible from you, be afraid that hordes of backward thinking no resource muslims will find a way to sneak thousands of miles across oceans to kill YOU!! Be afraid the liberals are out to get you! Be afraid Harry Potter will teach your children to become witches... BOOO!!!

    Xians ought to pay a lot more attention to the message of Jesus instead of trying to cobbling various pieces of scripture together to make a case for doing the opposite, when convenient. Xians, especially evangelicals and hard righties tend to be hypocrits who hide behind their interpretation of scripture to make themselves feel better and to have a defense for the opinions they hold or the actions they take.


    Not better, just more intellectually honest.


    Yeah, like the religious. More torture and head sawing and killing has taken place in the world in the name of a deity than in the name of liberalism or atheism. Unless you'd like to provide facts to the contrary... Those facts must show that atheism was the motivation.


    I'm an atheist and was so while in the military and there are plenty more. Even more who would say they believe in god but know nothing about their religion and don't go to church more than a handful of times a year if at all.

    Why do you think more conservative religious people join the military? Could it be due to education and poverty? I believe the reason is because authoritarians just love the who chain of command structure (just look how the CCCP runs, - get in line - wait your turn - don't speak out against your party - get on the same page -) With the added bonus of bullying people and if you're lucky you'll get to go kill someone of another religion.

    Do you know of any study that compares ASVAB and AFQT scores with religious preference? I don't know of one... I wonder why? Because people don't WANT that kind of stat being made public. Why?

    Hey Sally, I'm not afraid of your kind of bullying, willful ignorance and inability of the conservative mind to empathize because we all know bullys are really quite harmless when confronted. My concern however, is that there are a lot of you and in our country that equates to voting for other bullys.

    The REAL mental disorder is the one that holds back human progress. Attempts to maintain the status quo.
    You and your kind are nothing but terrorists that are too pussy to act on your insane rantings. At least the idiots that blow themselves up have real balls and true conviction, not the nudicles your kind keeps tucked between your legs.

    Yeah, there are really dangerous people out there in the world, you're one of them. Not because you have the sack to do anything but stand on a soapbox and rant but because you incite ignorant fools to do the things you couldn't possibly do yourself.
    The nun that barbecued your cat when you were 6 already apologized. If we got you a gift certificate for therapy sessions, would you please use them?

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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    It ticks me off when they go hop on their High Horses because "we, unlike you sky fairy, bible thumping, intolerant ignorant fools, believe that people have a right not to be tortured. See where religion leaves you now?"
    How long will it take you to get down off the horse you're on, hmmm?

    While they completely ignore the fact that there are really nasty SOB's out there that have one goal, convert us, or kill us. There is no other way, no third option.
    Yeah, they're called religious folk. The religious folk here are afraid that the religious folk over there are out to kill them and vise versa.

    Yeah, KSM got water poured over his face 183 times.
    So now in your ever expanding deception, you'd like to diminish the torture even further by simply saying he got water poured over his face... stop being a pussy and just call it torture and say you're in favor of it.

    I bet he would have rather not gone through such. I bet it was damned scary, uncomfortable, and really unpleseant.
    Well, if it's just damned scary, uncomfortable, and really unpleseant, like being forced to watch a gorey horror flick, then how can it possibly be effective and really, aren't there other interrogation techniques that would work better? I mean, wouldn't hooking a car batter to his nuts make him talk? I mean, if you have to get the information fast to save millions of innocent people, why not saw off an arm? I bet he'd tell you EVERYTHING you want to know to save the other arm...

    To hear these lefties rant about the situation, you'd have thought we plucked this guy off the street, and he woke up being water boarded till he admitted what W and Co. wanted to hear.
    Well, maybe not KSM but others.. yeah, that's exactly what happened... Abu Ghriab anyone?

    They ignore the fact that the enhanced interrogation was done under probably the most supervised, regulated and limited scope of any "torture" in the history of mankind.
    Got any evidence to back up that claim? Didn't think so.

    But that isn't good enough for them. Had Algore been President, and this occurred, they'd be lauding the "Gore, sadly necessary strenuous extraction of information done in the most humane manner ever in the history of man."
    And then we'd all drink tea and read the Koran.

    But no, it's W, the "evil" President. So emotionally, they are incapable of stopping for even a moment and being honest. Is it lamentable that we had to do these things? Yeah. But it's not our fault, it's those that take up the mantle of "terrorist" and wish harm upon us that to blame.
    Yeah, I hope when we invaded Iraq, we got all those evil guys who flew the planes into the WTC.

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