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Thread: Religious tend to support torture more often

  1. #191
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I absolutely disagree with this entire quote. It's a very lowly look at mankind that gives humanity zero credit. Crackpot theory in my opinion.
    A Conservative calling Alexis De Tocqueville a crackpot.

    It is confirmed by the sociology of religion of those like Durkheim and William James.

    What Tocqueville is suggesting, as Blackdog makes clear, is that men need some kind of shared belief system, some kind of meaning if society is to function and it is a lot better when it comes from the organic society of small-scale associations rather than is imposed by the state.

    We can eulogise men thinking for themselves as the unthinking, ahistorical liberal often does, and that is important, but there still has to be that grounding, that base of shared beliefs in order for a society to be a society let alone be stable and healthy one. This is what De Tocqueville correctly points out, take all that way and you have complete atomism, completely anxious and isolated individuals, ripe pickings for the comforts of despotism.

    To quote De Tocqueville again.

    "Without common belief no society can prosper; say, rather, no society can exist; for without ideas held in common, there is no common action, and without common action there may still be individuals but there is no social body. In order that society should exist and, a fortiori, that a society should prosper, it is necessary that the mind of all the citizens should be rallied and held together by certain predominant ideas"
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  2. #192
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Too bad they didn't do it in the name of atheism.
    Stalin saw the profanity of the church and decided to do away with it so that it couldn't challenge his power.
    Hitler was co-mingling catholicism with the occult.
    Mao killed the majority of his kill list through bad policies that caused massive starvation.
    All of them were fascist tyrants. Fascists believe in the efficacy of torture.

    You failed your history test.
    They did it in the name of their atheistic social engineering. They attmpted to swipe at what went before and inserted their own atheistic, statist designs into what had gone before. All of them certainly attacked the traditional religious institutions of their nations.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #193
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I guess I could see the merit in that point except that the Bible, like many religious books, is full of contradictions allowing a wide degree of interpretation. I think a person who valued their own inner moral compass above that of a controversial contradictory book would have an easier time just doing what they felt was right vs worrying over deciphering some age old text to find some guidance on a modern age dilemma.
    Well that is the reason for the importance of sacred tradition. One can look at the sacred texts but also have the help of the centuries of study of these ancient moral questions and the religions opinions on many aspects of them.

    This is conservatism in moral form, it is the gradual adaption and building of a ethical and spiritual structure, embodying millenia of thinking and experience on the subject within the relatively organic framework of one culture or belief system, that can be adapted to the individual's situation leaving him room to decide on his actions but without having to completely decide and decipher upon everything with his limited human faculties.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 05-06-09 at 03:25 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  4. #194
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Wessex, it could just as easily have been the other way around. The traditions and moral teachings of scriptures didn't just appear from thin air, humans had to commit them to writing. Morality and a sense of right and wrong probably existed before humans could even write them down. It's a case of the chicken and the egg. You claim that scripture guides morality, but I believe morality is what formed scripture. It is just organized morality that calls on specific doctrines to be practiced in order to provide the framework for adhering to certain moral ideas; however, these moral ideas don't require scripture to exist, as is evidenced by Atheists being benign.

    I don't need to be taught not to murder because God will be mad at me. It's enough for me not to kill another person because it causes pain and suffering, and it's not something I'd want done to me. Besides, the first half of the ten commandments are mostly talking about how jealous God is and how you better not worship anyone else. I don't want my children learning from that. Or in the Korean it tells people to strike down infidels who don't teach others scripture... what the hell? I don't want my kid learning to hate people who are different than he/she is. And don't get me started on Judaism, saying that women should take a special bath when they're on their period because they are dirty and Elohim wants them to be clean.

    Ugh... it's so primitive I can hardly stand it. Upholding tradition for tradition's sake is not a good reason in of itself. People need to think on their own and decide what is worth holding on to, instead of living in fear that some person in the sky (who, by any modern secular definition, is completely nuts) is going to punish them for all eternity. People need to stop relying on the invisible parent/authority in the sky and start parenting themselves.

  5. #195
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    I have not read this thread, nor am I about to. As a person of faith, I am deeply disturbed that the "religious" tend to support torture more often. This is very troubling to me. While I am conservative, I strongly agreed with Senator McCain on Waterboarding. I believe torture is a gross violation of our beliefs as Christians and our ideals as freedom-loving people.
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  6. #196
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    It just so happen however that bullys tend to be republican and so to, evangelical xians. Birds of a feather?
    Bullies tend to be extremists, right or left, believers or atheists. Position on the issue is irrelevant. Inability to be tolerant is what matters.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #197
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    I think we oughta waterboard religious people too. Wadda ya say folks?
    Let's all go to "WaterWorld" or some such theme park!
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  8. #198
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Bullies tend to be extremists, right or left, believers or atheists. Position on the issue is irrelevant. Inability to be tolerant is what matters.


    or center......


    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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  9. #199
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    When you understand that a death qualified jury is most likely to convict a person, this isn't hard to believe, or much different.

  10. #200
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    Re: Religious tend to support torture more often

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    It just so happen however that bullys tend to be republican and so to, evangelical xians. Birds of a feather?
    Stalin was a communist, and therefore a leftist. He was the biggest bully that ever lived.
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