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Thread: Repay Obama tax credit ?

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    Re: Repay Obama tax credit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by theTANTALIZER View Post
    WASHINGTON (AP) -- Millions of Americans enjoying their small windfall from President Barack Obama's "Making Work Pay" tax credit are in for an unpleasant surprise next spring.

    The government is going to want some of that money back.

    The tax credit is supposed to provide up to $400 to individuals and $800 to married couples as part of the massive economic recovery package enacted in February. Most workers started receiving the credit through small increases in their paychecks in the past month.

    Continue
    INSIDE WASHINGTON: Taxpayers to get rude surprise - Yahoo! Finance
    No one should be surprised that any notion that you will get a tax break with Democrats in power is nothing more than fantasy and wishful thinking when dealing with Democrats.

    But hey, we are only talking about a measly $33.33 per month anyway; whoop dee doo right?

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    Re: Repay Obama tax credit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Honestly, is this really new?

    Virtually every contemporary tax cut will need to be repaid. Especially those taken out with debt. At least there's a little bit more honest and a bit more timely. God knows that we're on the line for billions if not trillions in debt finances tax cuts accrued over the last decades. If one was smart, they'd take the money they got from the tax cut and put it into an appreciating property specifically to pay back that tax cut in the future.

    Excuse me if I'm jaded, but when one gets down into the accounting, these contemporary tax cuts are really just loans.
    I see you can't distinguish the difference from a tax cut and a TAX CREDIT.

    The really offensive part is that these tax credit giveaways were designed as NON-REFUNDABLE so that even if your tax liability was ZERO, Uncle Sam writes you a check.

    Don't be angry OC, in a way, people like you helped elect these clowns; assuming of course you are old enough to vote.

    Carry on.

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    Re: Repay Obama tax credit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I see you can't distinguish the difference from a tax cut and a TAX CREDIT.
    I see you can't understand the concept of debt financing.

    The really offensive part is that these tax credit giveaways were designed as NON-REFUNDABLE so that even if your tax liability was ZERO, Uncle Sam writes you a check.
    In the current fiscal year yes. However, your argument ignores how these were funded. Debt financed tax cuts and credits will need to be repaid with either spending cuts or tax hikes in the future. Reagan started to do this and Bush HW did this. The tax cuts and credits given out were debt financed. That eventually had to be paid back. Guess what Clinton's tax cuts and additional credits were? Pay down the debt, much of it was tax cuts from the Reagan years.

    So is it really a tax cut or credit when you will eventually face higher taxation to pay off the debt and its accrued interest incurred to provide you that tax cut?

    No, that's by definition a loan. The worst thing is, we have no idea what the actual effective interest rate is, especially since debt is being taken out to finance older debt. Bush's tax cuts and business credits were estimated by the CBO to have added 35% to the deficit. All of that was debt financed.

    Perhaps you should enroll in a local community college to understand just how debt works.

    Don't be angry OC, in a way, people like you helped elect these clowns; assuming of course you are old enough to vote.

    Carry on.
    See above. Interesting how you make a crack about age, yet show absolutely no understanding of mature topics like debt financing.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 05-01-09 at 06:51 PM.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Repay Obama tax credit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    I see you can't understand the concept of debt financing.

    In the current fiscal year yes. However, your argument ignores how these were funded. Debt financed tax cuts and credits will need to be repaid with either spending cuts or tax hikes in the future. Reagan started to do this and Bush HW did this. The tax cuts and credits given out were debt financed. That eventually had to be paid back. Guess what Clinton's tax cuts and additional credits were? Pay down the debt, much of it was tax cuts from the Reagan years.

    So is it really a tax cut or credit when you will eventually face higher taxation to pay off the debt and its accrued interest incurred to provide you that tax cut?

    No, that's by definition a loan. The worst thing is, we have no idea what the actual effective interest rate is, especially since debt is being taken out to finance older debt. Bush's tax cuts and business credits were estimated by the CBO to have added 35% to the deficit. All of that was debt financed.

    Perhaps you should enroll in a local community college to understand just how debt works.

    See above. Interesting how you make a crack about age, yet show absolutely no understanding of mature topics like debt financing.
    What in the HELL does debt financing have to do with my comments about your inability to distinguish the difference between a tax cut, and a tax credit?

    I have a degree in Finance/Accounting with a 3.68 GPA; do you really think you can argue with me about "debt" financing, the inflationary effects of Government debt and economic theory? What is your degree in; false uninformed rhetoric?

    The only thing more laughable about your notions about how the REAL world works is this constant blather about how Bush's tax cuts added 35% to the budget deficit!

    Let me give you a tiny clue; revenues always INCREASE. They INCREASED during Bush's Presidency and they will eventually INCREASE under Obama's.

    But it won’t matter because the GOVERNMENT ALWAYS SPENDS it FASTER than they can TAKE it IN.

    This inane notion that Government will lose revenue when people are allowed to keep more of their money is patently absurd.

    Here's a very simple formula of REALITY:

    Allowing people to keep more of their money = more spending = business growth = profits = more employment = more tax payers all of which = increasing revenue.

    When you use REGRESSIVE tax codes or LEGISLATE in an irresponsible fashion in an attempt to REDISTRIBUTE wealth, make things more fair or punish Capital formation then what happens is you get LESS economic output, Capital finds a safer haven and you end up actually having LESS revenue to pay your bills because of declining employment and declining profits.

    It doesn't take someone with an economics degree or genius to figure it all out, just some basic commons sense; try it sometime, you may actually appreciate REALITY more.

    Here’s another REALITY, when the Democrats finally get around to being HONEST about how to pay for all this incredibly irresponsible Government spending, EVERYONE will be paying a much HIGHER tax burden because Companies do not pay taxes, they pass their costs to ALL OF US. Then you will REALLY have something to whine about as you watch the economy tank even more.

    Now hurry up and run to the basement and whine about me some more; you're an expert at it.
    Last edited by Truth Detector; 05-01-09 at 08:12 PM.

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    Re: Repay Obama tax credit ?

    To help those who don't understand the basics of debt financing, here's the definition of a loan:

    An arrangement in which a lender gives money or property to a borrower, and the borrower agrees to return the property or repay the money, usually along with interest, at some future point(s) in time

    The lender in this case, is individuals and China who the US government borrows money for to pay for the tax cuts and tax credits. Normally, the associated revenue from those would come in and be spent on programs. By cutting those forms of revenue, the government must borrow money. Therefore, the tax cuts and tax credits, which are essentially expenditures are debt financed. Even worse, when the government takes out debt specifically to give tax credits, the associated debt is specifically tied to such tax expenditures. The government will need to pay back the borrowed money with interest and will invariably do this via taxation. Therefore, those who receive the tax cuts and tax credits are merely receiving a disguised, unstated interest rate loan.

    Get now TD? This ain't hard.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Repay Obama tax credit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    What in the HELL does debt financing have to do with my comments about your inability to distinguish the difference between a tax cut, and a tax credit?
    If you paid attention the notion was about how both are really just loans. Clearly you don't understand why they are loans.

    I have a degree in Finance/Accounting with a 3.68 GPA; do you really think you can argue with me about "debt" financing, the inflationary effects of Government debt and economic theory? What is your degree in; false uninformed rhetoric?
    Yes. Given how little you understand everything else here and how you rely on generic smack, I can. Furthermore my original post clearly argued how the tax expenditure was nothing more than an loan, similar to other tax cuts and credits. The only point of argument you really have is my use of tax cut rather than tax credit which is largely semantics regarding the actual issue here: how they are nothing more than loans. You failed to address this entirely.

    The only thing more laughable about your notions about how the REAL world works is this constant blather about how Bush's tax cuts added 35% to the budget deficit!
    And TD fails to use Google again

    Egg on your face.

    You're right though. It wasn't 35%. It was 48%

    Tax cuts account for nearly half — 48 percent — of this $539 billion in increased costs
    More from the CBO:

    Congressional Budget Office data show that the tax cuts have been the single largest contributor to the reemergence of substantial budget deficits in recent years. Legislation enacted since 2001 added about $3.0 trillion to deficits between 2001 and 2007, with nearly half of this deterioration in the budget due to the tax cuts (about a third was due to increases in security spending, and about a sixth to increases in domestic spending). Yet the President and some Congressional leaders decline to acknowledge the tax cuts’ role in the nation’s budget problems, falling back instead on the discredited nostrum that tax cuts “pay for themselves.”
    The Mid-Session Budget Review, released July 30, shows that to date, the tax cuts have accounted for 57 percent of the cost of all legislation enacted since the Administration took office. The tax cuts thus have contributed more to the worsening fiscal picture than all other new government policies combined.....

    The Mid-Session Review data also show that the tax cuts account for well over half of the 2004 deficit.
    Tax Cuts: Myths and Realities — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities
    Studies Shed New Light on Effects of Administration?s Tax Cuts — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

    Let me give you a tiny clue; revenues always INCREASE. They INCREASED during Bush's Presidency and they will eventually INCREASE under Obama's.
    According to whom?

    When you use REGRESSIVE tax codes or LEGISLATE in an irresponsible fashion in an attempt to REDISTRIBUTE wealth, make things more fair or punish Capital formation then what happens is you get LESS economic output, Capital finds a safer haven and you end up actually having LESS revenue to pay your bills because of declining employment and declining profits.
    Try again

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/econom...-new-post.html

    And TD goes off on another tangent.

    Explain to me how I'm wrong that the tax cuts and tax credits are not loans
    Last edited by obvious Child; 05-01-09 at 08:36 PM.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Repay Obama tax credit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    To help those who don't understand the basics of debt financing, here's the definition of a loan:

    An arrangement in which a lender gives money or property to a borrower, and the borrower agrees to return the property or repay the money, usually along with interest, at some future point(s) in time

    . Normally, the associated revenue from those would come in and be spent on programs. By cutting those forms of revenue, the government must borrow money. Therefore, the tax cuts and tax credits, which are essentially expenditures are debt financed. Even worse, when the government takes out debt specifically to give tax credits, the associated debt is specifically tied to such tax expenditures. The government will need to pay back the borrowed money with interest and will invariably do this via taxation. Therefore, those who receive the tax cuts and tax credits are merely receiving a disguised, unstated interest rate loan.

    Get now TD? This ain't hard.
    I know you enjoy this prefer this type of verbal diarrhea to credible debate, but how amazing is it that you dare to lecture anyone about debt financing and credit when you make these types of farcical statements:

    The lender in this case, is individuals and China who the US government borrows money for to pay for the tax cuts and tax credits

    They are not borrowing money to “pay for tax cuts and tax credits,” they are borrowing money to pay for their SPENDING which EXCEEDS their REVENUE. Do you honestly think tax cuts/credits have anything to do with the HUGE deficit we are facing OR that it has nothing to do with a $3.6 trillion dollar budget which far exceeds any tax cut or credit that could be rescinded?

    Here, let me try to make it simpler for you; even if they didn’t have this tiny little tax credit, the budget would still be more than a trillion dollars in the red. Does that help you at all?

    Here let me try even simpler math; even if you taxed all the richest Americans in the country at 100% and didn’t have ANY tax cuts, it would not pay for the deficit. Did that help at all?

    It is farcical for you to presume you know what you are talking about when you make such completely inane statements.

    Now back to my original statement that you completely ignore with your verbal diatribe; do you even know the difference between a tax "credit" versus a tax "cut"?

    Where did you get your finance degree by the way?

    Now run away OC, run away to the basement and whine about once more having your arrogant and naive notions the economy and debt financing thrown back in your while pretending to have the intellectual capacity to presume you can lecture others about things you truly have little comprehension about.

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    Re: Repay Obama tax credit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Care to elaborate as to why you make this... ehem claim?


    Is there some factual foundation for it?
    I am going to save you the trouble and let you in on the fact that the answer to both questions is "no".

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    Re: Repay Obama tax credit ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I know you enjoy this prefer this type of verbal diarrhea to credible debate, but how amazing is it that you dare to lecture anyone about debt financing and credit when you make these types of farcical statements:

    The lender in this case, is individuals and China who the US government borrows money for to pay for the tax cuts and tax credits

    They are not borrowing money to “pay for tax cuts and tax credits,” they are borrowing money to pay for their SPENDING which EXCEEDS their REVENUE. Do you honestly think tax cuts/credits have anything to do with the HUGE deficit we are facing OR that it has nothing to do with a $3.6 trillion dollar budget which far exceeds any tax cut or credit that could be rescinded?
    Even more amusing. You didn't even get the point I was making later on in the post, which either means you are ignorant of the subject or are liar.

    In fact they are borrowing money to pay for tax cuts. If they had not done the tax cut, then the corresponding revenue would have removed the need to borrow money. By specifically enacting tax cuts and credits, the government is reduce revenue. While it is correct that the spending is part of the cause of the deficit, the steep decline in tax revenue caused by the tax cuts requires borrowing. You have completely failed to do the math on both sides of the equation and a basic lesson in finance was due given your previous failure.

    Here, let me try to make it simpler for you; even if they didn’t have this tiny little tax credit, the budget would still be more than a trillion dollars in the red. Does that help you at all?
    Incorrect. Based on the CBO data posted, without the deficits caused by the tax cuts and credits, we wouldn't be seeing such massive spikes in debt. I'm actually using data rather then just assume whatever 'facts' I wish to suit my argument.

    Here let me try even simpler math; even if you taxed all the richest Americans in the country at 100% and didn’t have ANY tax cuts, it would not pay for the deficit. Did that help at all?
    Not relevant. You have not address how the tax cuts and tax credits are nothing more than loans.

    It is farcical for you to presume you know what you are talking about when you make such completely inane statements.
    See above. Generic smack does not prove a point other than you have nothing left to fight with.

    Now back to my original statement that you completely ignore with your verbal diatribe; do you even know the difference between a tax "credit" versus a tax "cut"?
    As previously noted, this was my sole mistake. I did not include tax credit and cut, but that again is largely semantics when it comes to the issue of how they are both nothing more than loans. I freely admit this, but again, your sole argument is the lack of additional credit term rather than the actual meat of my argument which is that they are both disguised, unstated interest rate loans.

    Again, generic smack is weak.

    Your whole argument is merely semantics. If you ever wish to deal with what I was actually talking about, I'd be open to it.

    And the whole piss fight about degrees doesn't help when you cannot define what a loan is.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Repay Obama tax credit ?

    Good lord, only someone like you could be naïve enough to think that the CONGRESSIONAL Budget Office makes accurate predictions and analysis. Does it occur to you as odd that they would argue that it is not increased spending that causes deficits but lack of revenue?

    Hello! REALITY to OC come in OC.

    Here’s a clue for you; go to this link of the CBO’s projections in 1999 for a reality check on the accuracy of their projections and estimates.

    Testimony on <I>The Economic and Budget Outlook: Fiscal Years 2000-2009</I>

    I want you to go to this chart on page 31 of the following link and read the data; receipts declined as a result of 9-11 and the economic slowdown in 2001 but in the years following increased by over 41.4% between the lowest revenue year of 2003 and 2008.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget...9/pdf/hist.pdf

    Also note that between those same years the deficit was declining to $161 billion until the Democrats took control of congress.

    What tax cuts occurred in 2008 that caused the deficit to jump by almost 253%?

    Now also look at the fantasy projected by the CBO for the next 4 years suggesting a surplus.

    One has to suspend their disbelief to think that the farcical analysis and projections of the CBO are reality or that tax cuts are the reason we have deficits when the data hardly supports that notion.

    As a percentage of GDP, revenues remain fairly stable yet outlays continue to outpace GDP.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Explain to me how I'm wrong that the tax cuts and tax credits are not loans
    Good lord, one could explain it ad nausea and you would come back with the same trite uninformed arguments as before.

    I will ask you again, where did you get your finance degree and what school?

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