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Thread: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Here's is an implied presumption on your part that the govt did nothing else prior to waterboarding. They went straight to waterboarding knowing that all other methods of obtaining intelligence would not work. Please show me proof that waterboarding was SOP prior to using any other intelligence gathering method.
    I didn't say the Military uses it as an SOP. My statement was in reference to your hypothetical which alludes that torture is the only tried method to save the lives of those in the hypothetical.

    Here is my stance on torture plain and clear.

    1. I do not support torture based on suspicion of terrorism.
    2. I do not support torture because I believe it to be inhumane.
    3. I do not support torture, because it likely leads to inaccurate intel and that same intel could have more then likely been obtained through other means.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    1. I do not support torture based on suspicion of terrorism.
    We're not talking about "suspected" terrorism; we are talking about admitted terrorists who claim they would like to kill even more of our citizens.

    Now how do you feel about it?

    The TRUTH is you just don't support it because: I do not support torture because I believe it to be inhumane.

    And that is fine; but this is not how Government policy works when it comes to saving lives. So, your heart is in the right place, but you're not the one confronting the reality of a decision that could save lives.

    It's much easier to judge those decisions from the safety and comfort of our homes, a far different matter when you are the one making the hard CHOICES and DECISIONS.

    The notion that Bush is an immoral person therefore made immoral decisions because he hates Arabs is beyond absurd. But that is basically the idiotic argument Democrats are asserting here.

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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    You ignored it because your feigned morality paints you into a corner you cannot extract yourself from.
    No I ignored it because embryos and the unborn qualifying for human rights is debatable and is an unneeded tangent to this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Is war not immoral? These interrogation methods also had rules and codes of how to conduct them. I fail to see the "moral" difference other than your desperate equivocations.
    War is immoral and there are necessary evils that are accepted. I however choose to draw a line. It just so happens that my line when losing the "tug-a-war" between morality and immorality is more conservative then yours.
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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    We're not talking about "suspected" terrorism; we are talking about admitted terrorists who claim they would like to kill even more of our citizens.

    Now how do you feel about it?
    As I said, I would support torture of a PROVEN terrorist if a dire situation (no other options) was on hand that they had required information. I would not support torture if we SUSPECT an attack may come and that this terrorist MAY know something.

    That is to many unknowns to justify torture to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    The TRUTH is you just don't support it because: I do not support torture because I believe it to be inhumane.
    If that is the "truth" you are detecting then you need to re-read my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    And that is fine; but this is not how Government policy works when it comes to saving lives. So, your heart is in the right place, but you're not the one confronting the reality of a decision that could save lives.

    It's much easier to judge those decisions from the safety and comfort of our homes, a far different matter when you are the one making the hard CHOICES and DECISIONS.
    Many of these decisions need to be made by people with a clear head and larger perspective to avoid purely emotional responses to the situation and not take int he longer term affects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    The notion that Bush is an immoral person therefore made immoral decisions because he hates Arabs is beyond absurd. But that is basically the idiotic argument Democrats are asserting here.
    I always find it amusing when you offer rebuttals to non-existing arguments.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    No I ignored it because embryos and the unborn qualifying for human rights is debatable and is an unneeded tangent to this discussion.


    War is immoral and there are necessary evils that are accepted. I however choose to draw a line. It just so happens that my line when losing the "tug-a-war" between morality and immorality is more conservative then yours.
    So you believe in the morality of war where untold thousand die in horrible ways or end up with the loss of arms or legs, fingers or other body parts, but draw the line in the sand when it comes to "water boarding" where the worse fate of the victims is imagined drowning?

    Please excuse me if I find your feigned "morality" as it relates to this topic extremely unpalatable and difficult to swallow.

    As it concerns embryonic stem cells and abortion of living fetuses, it is absolutely relevant; that is unless your morality is extremely selective and perhaps politically motivated.

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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I see you have difficulty distinguishing the inclusion of how to use these methods in a manual with the "assertion" that it is the means of first resort.

    Gibb's argument:

    Originally Posted by Gibberish
    I believe torture is a last and distant resort, not a SOP. There are many many other measures that come before torture and can provide much more accurate and long lasting security.


    These "harsh" tactics of "water boarding" were not Standard Operating Procedures.

    Carry on.
    I was directly referring to the busting of knee caps in this instance, not water boarding.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Here, let's open your eyes: Waterboarding is not torture.
    I disagree. Waterboarding is at least as torturous as listening to or reading about a liberal whining about it or attempt to make political points out of a serious situation.
    Thank you

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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    As I said, I would support torture of a PROVEN terrorist if a dire situation (no other options) was on hand that they had required information. I would not support torture if we SUSPECT an attack may come and that this terrorist MAY know something.
    That is exactly the case we are debating here; what is it about Sheikh Khalid Mohammed's admissions you do not comprehend? Was it where he clearly stated he is a terrorist and would like to see even more of our citizens killed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Many of these decisions need to be made by people with a clear head and larger perspective to avoid purely emotional responses to the situation and not take int he longer term affects.
    So you "perceive" that the numerous debates and internal memos of the Bush Administration was not a thoughtful effort to deliberate the ramifications of using these harsh methods on KNOWN ADMITTED terrorists?

    I am sorry, but you are forcing one to prescribe to the willing suspension of disbelief if those are your arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    I always find it amusing when you offer rebuttals to non-existing arguments.
    I have addressed every one of your points and reiterated them to be sure I understood them correctly.

    What is fascinating is your own denial regarding your own positions on this topic, the FACTS surrounding them and your feigned morality.

    I have done nothing here but attempt to understand and comprehend the points you are so desperately trying to assert.

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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    So you believe in the morality of war where untold thousand die in horrible ways or end up with the loss of arms or legs, fingers or other body parts, but draw the line in the sand when it comes to "water boarding" where the worse fate of the victims is imagined drowning?
    How can I believe in the morality of something that I believe to be immoral?


    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    As it concerns embryonic stem cells and abortion of living fetuses, it is absolutely relevant; that is unless your morality is extremely selective and perhaps politically motivated.
    My morality of human beings is selective to human beings. To extend this to embryos and unborn I would have to accept them in my definition of "human beings". For my stance on this issue please see the Abortion threads or start one yourself and I will respond.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    I was directly referring to the busting of knee caps in this instance, not water boarding.
    Who busted Sheikh Khalids knee caps? Where was this in the memos regarding harsh interrogating techniques?

    I am trying to deal with the relevant thread topic, not imagined events that never occurred.

    Sorry for the confusion; if you are just fabricating events or issues for the sake of wandering off the topic, I will let you go.

    I confused your arguments for attempting to be relevant to the thread topic and dealing with REALITY.

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