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Thread: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    You'd let me and my family die instead of getting the information from a terrorist, because your AFRAID of hurting someone.
    I'm not afraid of hurting them. I think it's beneath me as a human to cause someone excruciating pain to extract information they may or may not have and may or may not share. Especially if there are other options to either gaining the information or stopping what ever is planned.

    If your family is going to absolutely die without the information from this individual, which they may or may not have, then we have worse security problems then torture.


    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I'd break his knee caps and get the information if needed and you'd live never knowing you were in the cross hairs, then you'd want me jailed for it.

    Who is the better person here? The one that let's people die or the one that saves lives?
    Even if this person was only suspected or assumed of knowing something? How many knee caps would you break to get the information you need? What requirements would you need to know that the person who's kneecaps you are busting has any information that could help you? ten? twenty? hundred?
    Last edited by Gibberish; 04-29-09 at 04:31 PM.
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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    I'm not afraid of hurting them. I think it's beneath me as a human to cause someone excruciating pain to extract information they may or may not have and may or may not share. Especially if there are other options to either gaining the information or stopping what ever is planned.
    It's beneath you to save peoples lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    If your family is going to absolutely die without the information from this individual, which they may or may not have, then we have worse security problems then torture.
    You dodged the question sir. You would be fine knowing that X number of people of died even though you had it in your power to save them.

    I wonder, if your family were victims of an attack, dead, seriously maimed, and you lived, only to learn later we COULD have saved them, but we didn't take the steps. Would you still feel the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Even if this person was only suspected or assumed of knowing something? How many knee caps would you break to get the information you need? What requirements would you need to know that the person who's kneecaps you are busting has any information that could help you? ten? twenty? hundred?
    Generally, a ball peen hammer, some restraints and one blow to the knee is enough. Of course, that's more exaggeration then actual act, breaking knees tends to cause more problems then it solves. The POINT I was making, was I would do what it took to save peoples lives, where as you would let them die.

    I think that makes you, evil.
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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    It's beneath you to save peoples lives?
    No. it's beneath me to harm someone suspected of being a terrorist when the information they provide may or may not save someone's life and there are other actions that can be taken to save said lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    You dodged the question sir. You would be fine knowing that X number of people of died even though you had it in your power to save them.
    Does your question assume that the terrorist is indeed a terrorist and does, without a doubt, know the information I need to save your families life and that there are absolutely no other options available to save you and your families life?
    Yes I would torture a PROVEN terrorist who has information if it is the ONLY option to save you and your families life.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I wonder, if your family were victims of an attack, dead, seriously maimed, and you lived, only to learn later we COULD have saved them, but we didn't take the steps. Would you still feel the same?
    The lack of torture didn't kill my family and may not have saved my family. The fact that the terrorist exists and , for what ever reason, has a grudge against my family and the lack of security of our country allowed my family to die. To continue your exaggerated hypotheticals I also wouldn't go back in time and kill the terrorist when he is a baby either.

    If you tortured innocent people to get information that didn't save your family would you be OK with your actions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Generally, a ball peen hammer, some restraints and one blow to the knee is enough. Of course, that's more exaggeration then actual act, breaking knees tends to cause more problems then it solves. The POINT I was making, was I would do what it took to save peoples lives, where as you would let them die.
    I believe torture is a last and distant resort, not a SOP. There are many many other measures that come before torture and can provide much more accurate and long lasting security.
    Last edited by Gibberish; 04-29-09 at 05:05 PM.
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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    I wouldn't support torture of soldiers captured in a war environment either. I don't care if the other side tortured. Just because our enemy does something doesn't mean we have to lower ourselves to their level.
    That wasn't my question; I asked:

    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    So does this feigned "moral code" you express extend to the unborn, embryos or conducting war against another country?

    Or is this "code" of yours only for terrorists attempting to murder innocents?

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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    It is fascinating watching you twist and turn to avoid questions or honesty in debate; for instance:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Does your question assume that the terrorist is indeed a terrorist and does, without a doubt, know the information I need to save your families life and that there are absolutely no other options available to save you and your families life?
    Yes I would torture a PROVEN terrorist who has information if it is the ONLY option to save you and your families life.
    What a fascinating question in a debate where an ADMITTED terrorist, Sheikh Khalid Mohammed is the primary source of debate.

    YES Gibb, we're talking about KNOWN terrorists who ADMIT they planned and wanted to kill more of our citizens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    To continue your exaggerated hypotheticals I also wouldn't go back in time and kill the terrorist when he is a baby either.
    The statement subscribes to amazing irony looking at your attempts to do just that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    I believe torture is a last and distant resort, not a SOP. There are many many other measures that come before torture and can provide much more accurate and long lasting security.
    Another false and specious argument; where in the FACTS of this debate does the Bush Administration suggest that this is Standard Operating Procedure? What facts do you have to support such an absurd and specious claim?

    This is one of the best examples of the circle of futility that I can find; where one specious false claim is challenged which leads to jumping to the next false and specious claim only to finally end up at the original false and specious claim.


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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Another false and specious argument; where in the FACTS of this debate does the Bush Administration suggest that this is Standard Operating Procedure? What facts do you have to support such an absurd and specious claim?
    Ummm, the fact that there is an SOP on how to go about the various levels of "interrogation" in and of itself means that its part of the SOP in regards to dealing with extracting information from people.

    If it wasn't part of the SOP then there whouldn't be an SOP on how to do it, which based on these documents, there is.

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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    That wasn't my question; I asked:

    Originally Posted by Truth Detector
    So does this feigned "moral code" you express extend to the unborn, embryos or conducting war against another country?

    Or is this "code" of yours only for terrorists attempting to murder innocents?
    I ignored everything but the relevant part, "conducting war against another country".

    Conducting war, which is violent and regrettable, has rules and codes of conduct. People don't die and are not harmed unless they prove to be an immediate threat. We also do not torture captured soldiers for military information.
    Last edited by Gibberish; 04-29-09 at 05:29 PM.
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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    No. it's beneath me to harm someone suspected of being a terrorist when the information they provide may or may not save someone's life and there are other actions that can be taken to save said lives.


    Does your question assume that the terrorist is indeed a terrorist and does, without a doubt, know the information I need to save your families life and that there are absolutely no other options available to save you and your families life?
    Yes I would torture a PROVEN terrorist who has information if it is the ONLY option to save you and your families life.


    The lack of torture didn't kill my family and may not have saved my family. The fact that the terrorist exists and , for what ever reason, has a grudge against my family and the lack of security of our country allowed my family to die. To continue your exaggerated hypotheticals I also wouldn't go back in time and kill the terrorist when he is a baby either.

    If you tortured innocent people to get information that didn't save your family would you be OK with your actions?


    I believe torture is a last and distant resort, not a SOP. There are many many other measures that come before torture and can provide much more accurate and long lasting security.
    Here's is an implied presumption on your part that the govt did nothing else prior to waterboarding. They went straight to waterboarding knowing that all other methods of obtaining intelligence would not work. Please show me proof that waterboarding was SOP prior to using any other intelligence gathering method.
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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Ummm, the fact that there is an SOP on how to go about the various levels of "interrogation" in and of itself means that its part of the SOP in regards to dealing with extracting information from people.

    If it wasn't part of the SOP then there whouldn't be an SOP on how to do it, which based on these documents, there is.
    I see you have difficulty distinguishing the inclusion of how to use these methods in a manual with the "assertion" that it is the means of first resort.

    Gibb's argument:

    Originally Posted by Gibberish
    I believe torture is a last and distant resort, not a SOP. There are many many other measures that come before torture and can provide much more accurate and long lasting security.


    These "harsh" tactics of "water boarding" were not Standard Operating Procedures.

    Carry on.

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    Re: Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    I ignored everything but the relevant part, "conducting war against another country".

    Conducting war, which is violent and regrettable, has rules and codes of conduct. People don't die and are not harmed unless they prove to be an immediate threat. We also do not torture captured soldiers for military information.
    You ignored it because your feigned morality paints you into a corner you cannot extract yourself from.

    Is war not immoral? These interrogation methods also had rules and codes of how to conduct them. I fail to see the "moral" difference other than your desperate equivocations.

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