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Thread: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

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    Re: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    maybe because the Holocaust hapenned right here 60 years ago!

    but maybe it's also because they feel guilty about that, and make laws about it as a sign of good will towards the Jews...just like when Sarkozy apologized for slavery and colonisation
    Yeah it happened. And the people responsible or partook should feel badly about it. But the sins of the father do not pass to the son. There is no reason a German youth of 19 years of age should be made to feel guilt regarding the Holocaust anymore than I should feel guilt for segregation or slavery(I don't by the way). I don't owe African-Americans anything, and the most current generations of Europeans don't owe the Jews an apology either. The ones responsible for the Holocaust? Yes, without question. But for subsequent generations being forced to relive events they were not a part of, and to be made to feel the guilt and shame for actions they did not partake in is a flawed system IMO. I believe Spain repealed Holocaust denial laws early in the 2000's and other European countries should follow suit IMO. You should be free to believe as you choose, and you should be free to express those sentiments so long as you do not infringe upon the rights of anothers well-being. Once you cross that line, then you should get hit with the full force of the law.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    1) No, you didn't read what I posted. They are not condemned because of what they say, but because of the consequences of what they say (threatening the public order by rehabilitating the nazis and inciting hatred towards Jews)
    If European culture and social order are so fragile that an idiot who doesn't acknowledge history is able to threaten it, then perhaps Europe deserves to fall into chaos and then off the map.
    __________________________________________________ _____________

    2) Read the trial and answer their arguments!

    Show me that it is not a "serious threat to public order"!
    Are you really prepared to say that your public order over there is threatened by a silly American who said some fairy tales in a book? Really? That your balance is so unstable that a man who spent much of his life dressed as Casper is able to turn your society upside down if left unchecked?

    Europe is even more pathetic in its weakness than I originally thought. No wonder it took the USA saving your sorry asses in both World Wars.

    Show me that it is not "incompatible with democracy and human rights"!
    What is "incompatible with democracy and human rights" is the European idea that society must be protected from its morons by a nanny state that practices thought control. The weakness and failure of Europe are manifest in the practice of incarcerating people for speaking in offensive ways rather than trusting in society to ridicule its own idiots into a state of irrelevance.

    Show me that "two legitimate aims: "the prevention of disorder or crime" and "the protection of the reputation or rights of others"" are not legitimate aims!
    I suppose if you need the government to protect you from hearing offensive things to keep you on the righteous path (else you would start denying the holocaust to just from mere exposure to the idea ), then fine. Whatever it takes to get you guys through it. I'm just glad I live in a democracy strong enough that everyone has a voice and a society that is strong enough that failing ideologies are shunned out of existence rather than imprisoned for being offensive.
    __________________________________________________ _____

    3) Oh, and it's funny to see that when a human right is (thought to be) not respected abroad (in this case in Europe), everyone says it is bad, but when the same human rights (...the right not to be tortured) is violated in the USA, everyone seems to think that it is necessary!!
    Which has what to do with Europe's practice of enforced thought control? Oh that's right...nothing. This is just a red herring to detract from the fact that Europe is so weak it can't let its people be exposed to dumb ideas lest they latch on to those dumb ideas en masse.

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    Re: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    If European culture and social order are so fragile that an idiot who doesn't acknowledge history is able to threaten it, then perhaps Europe deserves to fall into chaos and then off the map.
    __________________________________________________ _____________

    There are also laws about not walking naked in the street for the same reasons, and these laws exist in the USA too, yet you don't bitch about them.



    Are you really prepared to say that your public order over there is threatened by a silly American who said some fairy tales in a book? Really?
    That's what the court said and I agree with it

    Europe is even more pathetic in its weakness than I originally thought. No wonder it took the USA saving your sorry asses in both World Wars.
    You don't need to use insults



    What is "incompatible with democracy and human rights" is the European idea that society must be protected from its morons by a nanny state that practices thought control. The weakness and failure of Europe are manifest in the practice of incarcerating people for speaking in offensive ways rather than trusting in society to ridicule its own idiots into a state of irrelevance.
    You don't get it: there are morons like that who start their own political parties. Preventing them to spread their anti-democratic hatred is a way to preserve democracy. No tolerance for intolerants.



    I'm just glad I live in a democracy strong enough that everyone has a voice and a society that is strong enough that failing ideologies are shunned out of existence rather than imprisoned for being offensive.
    __________________________________________________ _____


    you have no idea what you're talking about. You start saying that European countries are not democratic because you don't understand what the court does and why.

    freedomhouse.org: Freedom in the World

    Which has what to do with Europe's practice of enforced thought control? Oh that's right...nothing. This is just a red herring to detract from the fact that Europe is so weak it can't let its people be exposed to dumb ideas lest they latch on to those dumb ideas en masse.
    Not at all, I just point out double standart. When it's about Europe (or anything else outside the USA) it's bad, but when Bush uses torture (which is an obvious breach of the Human Rights) then everyone tries to find excuses
    Last edited by bub; 04-28-09 at 01:51 PM.

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    Re: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    No.
    I do not pick and choose.

    Slippery slope but balance is everything and generally we are doing an all right job imo.
    I support laws against hate speech.
    You have it slightly wrong Laila, the UK has laws regarding the incitement to racial hatred or racial violence - you can hate and you can speak freely as long as that is not inciting others to violence. How that is interpreted varies - the "N" word for example will get you fired if you use it with intent to cause offence and you won't have legal redress at employment tribunal. People can and do have swastika tattoos for example but I doubt many would have a nazi flag outside their house as passersby would probably knock it down or break your windows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    "Hate speech" laws are nothing more than criminalizing dissent. Which of the following statements would you consider hate speech, and on what basis:

    A. "Blacks are 8 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely)

    B. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, but the person making the statement believes that 100 times is correct)

    C. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, but the person making the statement is exaggerating and can't be bothered to learn the correct figure)

    D. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, and the person making the statement knows perfectly well that 100 times is incorrect)

    E. "Blacks are much more violent than whites."

    F. "Blacks are much more likely to commit murder than whites."

    G. "Blacks are much more likely to commit murder than whites...maybe it's in their genes."

    H. "Blacks are murderers."

    I. "The government should severely punish all black murderers."


    So which of those statements are hate speech? And who is the GOVERNMENT to determine that? Perhaps they can form a committee to determine the "correct" view of all historical, sociological, religious, and racial issues. And anyone who disagrees with the committee will be thrown in jail for hate speech.
    None of them would be called incitement to hate - that's what you have to understand about some european laws (especially the UK). I see no incitement. What there are however is some states where there are particularly strong anti-holocaust denial laws and they are in countries where there were National Socialists in govt or hurting jews in WW2.

    "Laws in other European countries are more detailed than in the UK. Much of this is due to historical differences because they experienced national socialists," says Dr Callamard.
    BBC Pages

    As PeteEu pointed out - part of that has been written into their constitution by the winning powers after WW2.

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    Re: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    There are also laws about not walking naked in the street for the same reasons, and these laws exist in the USA too, yet you don't bitch about them.
    My apologies. If you would kindly submit your list of things you would like to hear me bitch about, let's get that out of the way now so we can eventually get back to the TOPIC.



    That's what the court said and I agree with it
    That's fine. One rarely hears a sheep raise dissent.

    You don't need to use insults
    That was an observation. If you would like an example of an insult, kindly see me in the Basement.

    You don't get it: there are morons like that who start their own political parties. Preventing them to spread their anti-democratic hatred is a way to preserve democracy. No tolerance for intolerants.
    Well you do have a point there. Europe has already shown that it was too weak to stop the rise of Hitler from among its ranks so, perhaps, keeping the responsibility that comes with free expression out of the hands of Europeans is probably not a bad idea.


    __________________________________________________ _____


    you have no idea what you're talking about. You start saying that European countries are not democratic because you don't understand what the court does and why.

    freedomhouse.org: Freedom in the World
    I didn't say you weren't democracies. What I did say is that the USA is stronger both socially and democratically because we don't need to send government goon squads to silence offensive speech. We handle it like adults here in America.

    Not at all, I just point out double standart. When it's about Europe (or anything else outside the USA) it's bad, but when Bush uses torture (which is an obvious breach of the Human Rights) then everyone tries to find excuses
    Well if we were talking about Bush and torture, you would have a point. However, we aren't so you don't. That's a whole different topic of conversation and if you would like, kindly start a thread on it and I would be happy to show you the truth on that matter, too.
    Last edited by jallman; 04-28-09 at 02:17 PM.

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    Re: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    1) No, you didn't read what I posted. They are not condemned because of what they say, but because of the consequences of what they say (threatening the public order by rehabilitating the nazis and inciting hatred towards Jews)

    __________________________________________________ _____________

    2) Read the trial and answer their arguments!

    Show me that it is not a "serious threat to public order"!

    Show me that it is not "incompatible with democracy and human rights"!

    Show me that "two legitimate aims: "the prevention of disorder or crime" and "the protection of the reputation or rights of others"" are not legitimate aims!

    __________________________________________________ _____

    3) Oh, and it's funny to see that when a human right is (thought to be) not respected abroad (in this case in Europe), everyone says it is bad, but when the same human rights (...the right not to be tortured) is violated in the USA, everyone seems to think that it is necessary!!
    All that this tells me again is that he hurt a bunch of peoples feelings saying crap that isn't true.

    I may not agree with what he has to say but I'll defend his right to say it.

    Why you may ask, because the freedom of speech is more important than hurt feelings.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Why you may ask, because the freedom of speech is more important than hurt feelings.
    Not in Europe, obviously. It's more important there to not expose the people to lies because they, apparently, can't tell the difference and might suddenly begin believing these untrue things unless the speakers of fairy tales are arrested and silenced.
    Last edited by jallman; 04-28-09 at 02:17 PM.

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    Re: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

    [quote=jallman;1058004330]My apologies. If you would kindly submit your list of things you would like to hear me bitch about, let's get that out of the way now so we can eventually get back to the TOPIC.

    Both are laws that are made to protect social order.


    That's fine. One rarely hears a sheep raise dissent.
    Weak debating

    That was an observation. If you would like an example of an insult, kindly see me in the Basement.
    That would be useless



    Well you do have a point there. Europe has already shown that it was too weak to stop the rise of Hitler from among its ranks so, perhaps, keeping the responsibility that comes with free expression out of the hands of Europeans is probably not a bad idea.
    You don't get it


    I didn't say you weren't democracies.
    You said we are less democratic. That is not true at all. If you don't believe me then go to freedomhouse.org

    What I did say is that the USA is stronger both socially
    that does not make sense

    and democratically because we don't need to send government goon squads to silence offensive speech. We handle it like adults here in America.
    Having a different form of government does not make you "stronger" or "better". We have different histories.


    Well if we were talking about Bush and torture, you would have a point. However, we aren't so you don't. That's a whole different topic of conversation and if you would like, kindly start a thread on it and I would be happy to show you the truth on that matter, too.
    Not at all, I'll use simple words so that you understand:

    debating about human rights in Europe => everyone says Europe sucks and is wrong

    debating about human rights in the USA => everyone tries to find excuses like "it was necessary"

    Just read that thread. I think all the US posters said they'd be OK to use torture.
    Last edited by bub; 04-28-09 at 02:29 PM.

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    Re: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

    [quote=bub;1058004380]
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    My apologies. If you would kindly submit your list of things you would like to hear me bitch about, let's get that out of the way now so we can eventually get back to the TOPIC.

    Both are laws that are made to protect social order.




    Weak debating



    That would be useless





    You don't get it




    You said we are less democratic. That is not true at all. If you don't believe me then go to freedomhouse.org



    that does not make sense



    Having a different form of government does not make you "stronger" or "better". We have different histories.




    Not at all, I'll use simple words so that you understand:

    debating about human rights in Europe => everyone says Europe sucks and is wrong

    debating about human rights in the USA => everyone tries to find excuses like "it was necessary"

    Just read that thread. I think all the US posters said they'd be OK to use torture.
    When you decide to toss aside the "nuh-huh" tactic and abandon your red herrings, we can get back to the topic of conversation which is Europe's spineless need to control the speech and thoughts of those it disagrees with.

    Until then, we will just consider the "Case of the Failing Continent of Europe" to be a closed matter.

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    Re: Former KKK leader detained in Prague

    [quote=jallman;1058004395]
    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post

    When you decide to toss aside the "nuh-huh" tactic and abandon your red herrings, we can get back to the topic of conversation which is Europe's spineless need to control the speech and thoughts of those it disagrees with.

    Until then, we will just consider the "Case of the Failing Continent of Europe" to be a closed matter.
    I'm sorry but it's impossible to debate as long as you insult me or call any argument "of topic" or "red herrings"
    Last edited by bub; 04-28-09 at 02:51 PM.

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