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Thread: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    They were not doing their jobs. They were manipulating words to try to make the case that actions that they knew were illegal are legal.

    Nobody has replied to my examples of how it is illegal for any attorney to not only "advise" his client to lie while under oath but, also to not report it if they believe their client intends to lie under oath. I'll take that silence as agreement.
    It's because it's complete apples and oranges.

    When you advise a client to perjure, you are knowingly advising them to break the law. There's no room for good faith.

    When you make a good-faith effort to devise a plan of action that, in your estimation, stays within the law, you're doing your job.

    So, in order to convict on the same basis as your spurious perjury example, you add a new level of proof, a new element of the crime -- you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these attorneys were NOT making a good-faith effort to stay within the law.

    I'm sure you'll say it's "obvious" they weren't, as your bigotry only allows you to see things in one exceedingly narrow way, but fortunately, the justice system is a bit more dispassionate and deliberate.

    My prediction: we will see no prosecutions, because no prosecutor will think he/she can get a conviction on the fact pattern. If there's anything at all to be done, it will be on some low-fruit ancillary thing falling far short of the TORTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! convictions you want.
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It's because it's complete apples and oranges.

    When you advise a client to perjure, you are knowingly advising them to break the law. There's no room for good faith.

    When you make a good-faith effort to devise a plan of action that, in your estimation, stays within the law, you're doing your job.

    So, in order to convict on the same basis as your spurious perjury example, you add a new level of proof, a new element of the crime -- you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these attorneys were NOT making a good-faith effort to stay within the law.
    That is what a trial would do. And there precedents. Water boarding was clearly illegal. Modifying its application does not change what it is.

    ... fortunately, the justice system is a bit more dispassionate and deliberate.
    I hang my hat on that.

    My prediction: we will see no prosecutions, because no prosecutor will think he/she can get a conviction on the fact pattern. If there's anything at all to be done, it will be on some low-fruit ancillary thing falling far short of the TORTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! convictions you want.
    On this we disagree. There is plenty of proof against them. Holder just needs to have the balls to go after them, even if Obama is against it for political reasons.
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    That is what a trial would do. And there precedents. Water boarding was clearly illegal.
    No, it wasn't. Not with the technique that the CIA was using, as I've told you on so many other threads covering the same topic.

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    That is what a trial would do. And there precedents. Water boarding was clearly illegal. Modifying its application does not change what it is.
    "Modifying its application" -- i.e., changing the fact pattern -- does INDEED "change" it.

    You don't convict on a slogan. You convict on individual facts as they relate to proving specific elements of a specific crime.


    On this we disagree. There is plenty of proof against them. Holder just needs to have the balls to go after them, even if Obama is against it for political reasons.
    On what's known, the fact pattern is not enough for conviction. Time will show that I'm right.

    In any case, I can only imagine the reaction to a string of acquittals on these charges, which is what I think would happen if it went to trial.
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Tortured at Gitmo Tells All

    Posted by Adam Howard, AlterNet at 8:49 AM on March 31, 2008.

    An innocent man held as a terror detainee for years talks about how Americans tortured him in Afghanistan and Gitmo.

    At the age of 19, Murat Kurnaz vanished into America's shadow prison system in the war on terror. He was from Germany, traveling in Pakistan, and was picked up three months after 9/11. But there seemed to be ample evidence that Kurnaz was an innocent man with no connection to terrorism. The FBI thought so, U.S. intelligence thought so, and German intelligence agreed. But once he was picked up, Kurnaz found himself in a prison system that required no evidence and answered to no one. The story Kurnaz told 60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley is a rare look inside that clandestine system of justice, where the government's own secret files reveal that an innocent man lost his liberty, his dignity, his identity, and ultimately five years of his life. Check out the video to your right for more.
    Ref: The Murat Kurnaz Story: An Innocent Man Tortured at Gitmo Tells All [VIDEO] | Rights and Liberties | AlterNet
    Don't miss the video. I challenge all of you to watch it in its entirety then come back here and defend Bush's actions! In fact, I dare you!

    This guy was beaten while his head was held under water. He was shocked and hoisted by chains for days. He was held and tortured for more than 5 years!!!

    Still think water boarding was the ONLY torture technique used?

    Still believe no innocents were illegally imprisoned or tortured?

    Still deny Don George tortured only guilty "terrorists"?

    There are plenty more stories like this. Find them yourself.

    Bush and his thugs "DESERVE" to be in jail. Whether they are put there is not up to me. But, as long as ignorant, blind partisans continue to defend them this justice will continue to be postponed.
    Last edited by ADK_Forever; 05-02-09 at 01:40 PM.
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Uh-huh.

    There is a type of person who would believe this unquestioningly upon first blush and not bother with finding a shred of corroborating evidence.

    There have been many, many such stories coming out which turned out to be complete BS.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Uh-huh.

    There is a type of person who would believe this unquestioningly upon first blush and not bother with finding a shred of corroborating evidence.

    There have been many, many such stories coming out which turned out to be complete BS.
    Did you watch the entire video?
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Did you watch the entire video?
    I watched about three quarters of it. (Yes, I did get to the part where he said "soldiers" have said they beat people hanging from ceilings.)

    Anything like this should be met with extreme skepticism, not the full-throated endorsement you instantly attached to it.

    If US soldiers beat prisoners hanging from ceilings, then they and anyone responsible should be punished for it.

    But first, you need credible evidence for it. I'm sure you take every syllable uttered by this guy as gospel, because it's what you want to believe, but I don't buy it -- not without some corroborating evidence. There has been a feeding frenzy of BS accusations and major news sources all too willing to present it without bothering to verify. Oh, and CBS's track record? NOT fabulous.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I watched about three quarters of it. (Yes, I did get to the part where he said "soldiers" have said they beat people hanging from ceilings.)

    Anything like this should be met with extreme skepticism, not the full-throated endorsement you instantly attached to it.

    If US soldiers beat prisoners hanging from ceilings, then they and anyone responsible should be punished for it.

    But first, you need credible evidence for it.
    And that would be what, you seeing it happen?

    There were facts in the video but, they're not good enough for you, right?

    There has been many CIA, FBI, gov't prosecutors who worked at GITMO and soldiers who has said that what the gov't was doing was torture, that it was wrong. Some even walked out of torture rooms because they were disgusted. But, I suppose none of what they say is credible to you as long as what they say goes against Bush, right?

    Oh, and CBS's track record? NOT fabulous.
    Typical "kill the messenger" bs.
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    I'll put it simply, for simple minds: The people who should be prosecuted are those who break the law. It's really that simple.

    That means if someone (President, Vice President, Secretary of Defense, etc) authorizes an illegal policy - he can be prosecuted.

    If a lawyer gave advice, contrary to our laws there are ways to deal with him also. Prosecution is only one of them. i.e. (that means "for instance") It is against the law to lie under oath. If a lawyer advised his client to lie under oath he himself could be prosecuted. He could also be prosecuted if he even knew his client was going to lie because he is an "Officer of the Court".

    Do you really think your name calling intimidates anyone? Do you think it gives any credence to your argument?
    You should be able to understand what you just said then.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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