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Thread: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

  1. #21
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by bhkad View Post
    And Pelosi et al should be tried as accessories to the crime because they knew of it and said/did nothing.
    I'm ok with this. I'm all for throwing all those bums out. If there is any wrong doing it must be investigated, if there is wrong doings found there must be prosecution. No ands ifs or buts about it. Yes, you have to be careful not to start into a witch hunt. But there MUST be some amount of responsibility held to the government for its actions. I don't care what your party is, you are expected to behave in certain ways and to restrict your actions to that which only the Constitution grants you. Any politician acting outside of this should be held responsible for their actions.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #22
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    There are proper ways of going about it. Prosecuting attorneys for doing their jobs is not one of them.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    No man is supposed to be above the law. Whether they are prosecuted for their crimes is another matter.
    Indeed, the question of prosecution seems driven solely by political inclinations.

    So how goes the Revolution, Comrade?

  4. #24
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    But no, Mr. Hope and Change, this is what you people really want? It's over folks, if we start prosecuting previous administrations...
    How would it be over exactly? We all hate each other now, have been for years, 9/11 brought one day of unity then after 9/12 it was business as usual.
    Jackboots always come in matched pairs, a left boot and a right boot.

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Indeed, the question of prosecution seems driven solely by political inclinations.

    So how goes the Revolution, Comrade?
    It's coming, sweetheart. It's coming. Just keep watching the news.

    After almost 8 years of torturing people, mostly innocent ones at that, and all the reports that must have been written on their torture results Cheney has only two, 2!, reports he can show to us to prove his point. And they are probably worthless, old stuff we've already heard about his 2 most famous prisoners.

    I hope all you Bush ars kissers enjoy watching him and Cheney and Rummy and Addington and maybe even Rove, if we're lucky, testify as to their crimes and then cry their remorseless tears as they're led to the paddy wagon. I will certainly be thinking of you and your ilk.

    Ooooooh, I'm getting all tingly!
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Ooooooh, I'm getting all tingly!
    Didn't Robespierre say that the night before his arrest?

  7. #27
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    There are proper ways of going about it. Prosecuting attorneys for doing their jobs is not one of them.
    They were not doing their jobs. They were manipulating words to try to make the case that actions that they knew were illegal are legal.

    Nobody has replied to my examples of how it is illegal for any attorney to not only "advise" his client to lie while under oath but, also to not report it if they believe their client intends to lie under oath. I'll take that silence as agreement.

    An attorney does not have immunity from giving advise that goes against the law. His duty is first to the court, you know... the law, and then to his client.

    One argument Attorney General Holder may use...
    Want to Prosecute the Lawyers? Cite Ministries — Not the Justice Case
    by Kevin Jon Heller

    Scholars who believe that the individuals who wrote the OLC memos authorizing torture should be criminally prosecuted — as I do — normally cite the Justice Case, decided by the Nuremberg Military Tribunal (NMT) in 1947, for the proposition that a government lawyer can be held criminally responsible for giving erroneous legal advice to his political superiors. Last year, I wrote a long post for Balkinization explaining why I believe that, in fact, the Justice Case provides much less support for that proposition than most scholars assume. As I said then, nothing in the Tribunal’s judgment prohibits prosecuting a government lawyer for giving erroneous legal advice — but nothing in the judgment supports it, either. That is, of course, a critical distinction when one is arguing that a case has precedential value.
    There is, however, another NMT case that does provide significant support for prosecuting the authors of the OLC memos: United States v. von Weizsaecker et al., better known as the Ministries Case, in which a number of government ministers, state secretaries, and high-ranking members of the Nazi party were convicted of crimes against peace, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. The critical defendants are Ernst von Weizsacker himself, who was the State Secretary in the Foreign Office, and Ernst Woermann, who was the Undersecretary of State and head of the Political Department in the Foreign Office. The two defendants, who were the Nazi government’s primary legal advisers, were convicted of crimes against humanity for approving SS actions that they knew violated international law.
    The Tribunal had little trouble convicting von Weizsaecker and Woermann for their involvement in the deportations. First, it concluded that Woermann — and by implication von Weizsaecker, his superior — knew that the deportations violated international law (pp. 497-98):
    Neither claims that there was any legal justification for this deportation or suggests it was other than a flagrant violation of international law and of the provisions of the Hague Convention…. The defendant Woermann… knew that it was in violation of every principle of international law and in direct contradiction of the Hague Convention.
    Second, the Tribunal held that because the defendants knew that the deportations violated international law, they had an absolute duty as the Reich’s legal advisers to object to the deportations when the SS asked them to assess their legality (pp. 958-59):
    The Foreign Office was the only official agency of the Reich which had either jurisdiction or right to advise the government as to whether or not proposed German action was in accordance with or contrary to the principles of international law. While admittedly it could not compel the government or Hitler to follow its advice, both von Weizsaecker and Woermann had both the duty and the responsibility of advising truthfully and accurately…
    The parallels between the Foreign Office’s role in the SS deportations and the OLC’s role in the CIA’s torture regime are uncanny. Nothing is lost if we simply substitute “Yoo, Bybee, and Bradbury” for “Woermann and von Weizsaecker,” “OLC” for “Foreign Office,” and “torture” for “deportations.”

    Indeed, in one critical respect, the case against the authors of the OLC memos is even stronger than the case against von Weizsaecker and Woermann. The latter’s criminal participation in the deportations consisted solely of omissions – failing to point out that the deportations violated international law. The former’s criminal participation in the CIA’s torture regime, by contrast, consists of both acts and omissions, because Yoo, Bybee, and Bradbury not only failed to point out that the torture regime violated international law (and US law, as well), they crafted legal arguments to conceal the illegality of that regime.
    Ref: Opinio Juris Blog Archive Want to Prosecute the Lawyers? Cite Ministries — Not the Justice Case
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Moderator's Warning:
    UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyersAlright. How about everyone stick to the topic instead of seeing which side can belittle the other the best
    You might be the MOD... the boss here... but you missed it on this one. ADK obviously threw out the first personal insult in this thread weather he recognized it or not!
    Obama lied... Ambassador Stevens died!

  9. #29
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by chevydriver1123 View Post
    How would it be over exactly? We all hate each other now, have been for years, 9/11 brought one day of unity then after 9/12 it was business as usual.
    No administration will be willing to make hard choices out of fear the next President and staff will find fault with their actions and go after them.

    This is the behavior that leads to tyrrany. But that's that historical stuff, who cares about what happened somewhere in the past, can't happen here right?
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    It's coming, sweetheart. It's coming. Just keep watching the news.

    After almost 8 years of torturing people, mostly innocent ones at that, and all the reports that must have been written on their torture results Cheney has only two, 2!, reports he can show to us to prove his point. And they are probably worthless, old stuff we've already heard about his 2 most famous prisoners.

    Do you have access to intelligence the rest of don't? How do you know mostly (which by it definition means a majority) innocent ones were tortured? You use the world probably and mostly quite often. How about sticking to what can be proven and isn‘t skeptical nonsense..

    If there was a Debate Politics tribunal, you would be found guilty of the following:

    Argumentum ad ignorantiam:

    Argumentum ad ignorantiam means "argument from ignorance." The fallacy occurs when it's argued that something must be true, simply because it hasn't been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that something must be false because it hasn't been proved true.

    Plurium interrogationum

    This fallacy occurs when someone demands a simple (or simplistic) answer to a complex question

    Tu quoque

    This is the famous "you too" fallacy. It occurs if you argue that an action is acceptable because your opponent has performed it. For instance:

    "You're just being randomly abusive."

    "So? You've been abusive too."

    Atheism: Logic & Fallacies

    I also draw from your quote that you assume that the administration and military intelligence was so incompetent that if they weren't in fact getting any good intelligence they would've kept torturing just in case, and not stopped and thought "Hey, this isn't working, we have to try something else."
    "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." -Jefferson

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