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Thread: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Oh, like I'm surprised. You simply cannot show what you claim is so to be true. It's not my "bait" -- it's your very specific claim that it's up to you to support.

    Not that I ever expected you to.
    Alright...I will answer your challenge as soon as you answer mine:

    Please take the Bible, parse it piece by piece, page by page...story by story and explain exactly how it doesn't specifically argue against torture. Then....Do the same thing with our Constitution.
    I'll be awaiting your reply.....& be specific!!

    (I won't be surprised if you fail to take my challenge as that will prove that your position is untenable & you are probably grossly overweight to boot!)
    Last edited by Devil505; 05-09-09 at 09:39 PM.

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Also, let's not lose sight of what we are arguing here: You say it perfectly OK for our country to TORTURE individuals (who haven' been convicted of ANY crime) & I say no it isn't OK.

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Then, as I said to your Grover Dill above, it should not be very difficult for you to do exactly what I asked.
    I responded to your questions with all the detail they deserve. The points you choose to ignore, and think carry no significance, sure seemed to be very significant to the Justice Department. The answers you seek are in the article linked to from the OP. Maybe you should read it. Maybe you'll learn something from it. Hey, ya nevah know.
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Alright...I will answer your challenge as soon as you answer mine:

    Please take the Bible, parse it piece by piece, page by page...story by story and explain exactly how it doesn't specifically argue against torture. Then....Do the same thing with our Constitution.
    I'll be awaiting your reply.....& be specific!!

    (I won't be surprised if you fail to take my challenge as that will prove that your position is untenable & you are probably grossly overweight to boot!)
    I don't have to, because I never made any claims of any kind about the Bible, or the Constitution, and torture. You, on the other hand, made specific claims about specific people and their specific writings, and it's up to you to back them up.

    But it's painfully clear now that you can't. Run along, little boy, and let the adults talk.
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    The answers you seek are in the article linked to from the OP. Maybe you should read it.
    No, they aren't. You said this:

    Those attorneys left out very pertinent info in their effort to make torture look legal. By leaving that info out they showed they were aware how an argument could be made for its illegality.
    I challenged thusly:

    1) Show that they did that.

    2) THEN show that it's not standard practice for the type of memos they were writing.
    The article in the OP, in its entirety, reads:

    VIENNA (AP) - The U.S. is obligated by a United Nations convention to prosecute Bush administration lawyers who allegedly drafted policies that approved the use of harsh interrogation tactics against terrorism suspects, the U.N.'s top anti-torture envoy said Friday.

    Earlier this week, President Barack Obama left the door open to prosecuting Bush administration officials who devised the legal authority for gruesome terror-suspect interrogations. He had previously absolved CIA officers from prosecution.

    Manfred Nowak, who serves as a U.N. special rapporteur in Geneva, said Washington is obligated under the U.N. Convention against Torture to prosecute U.S. Justice Department officials who wrote memos that defined torture in the narrowest way in order to justify and legitimize it, and who assured CIA officials that their use of questionable tactics was legal.
    "That's exactly what I call complicity or participation" to torture as defined by the convention, Nowak said at a news conference. "At that time, every reasonable person would know that waterboarding, for instance, is torture."
    Nowak, an Austrian law professor, said it was up to U.S. courts and prosecutors to prove that the memos were written with the intention to incite torture.

    Nowak also said any probe of questionable CIA interrogation tactics must be independent and have thorough investigative powers.

    "It can be a congressional investigation commission, a special investigator, but it must be independent and with thorough investigative powers," Nowak said.

    On Thursday, Obama's press secretary suggested Obama does not care for an independent panel.

    Last week, the Obama administration released secret CIA memos detailing interrogation tactics sanctioned under Bush.

    The memos authorized keeping detainees naked, in painful standing positions and in cold cells for long periods of time. Other techniques included depriving them of solid food and slapping them. Sleep deprivation, prolonged shackling and threats to a detainee's family also were used.

    Nowak said Saturday that Obama's decision not to prosecute CIA operatives who used questionable interrogation practices violates the same U.N. convention. But at that point he did not specifically address the issue of how the convention would apply to those who drafted the interrogation policy and gave the CIA the legal go-ahead.
    There is nothing in that article having anything to do with your claim, nor does anything in it answer my two challenges.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Also, let's not lose sight of what we are arguing here: You say it perfectly OK for our country to TORTURE individuals (who haven' been convicted of ANY crime) & I say no it isn't OK.
    No, I'm not. That's how you're trying to paint it, but that's not what I'm arguing at all. That you simply do not understand the argument is not, in the least, my problem.
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    I guess a mod's warning doesn't apply to you, ehh? Is that the kind of example of behavior we're supposed to follow?

    Just curious.
    Follow what ever you want. The MODs warning was about ceasing personal attacks. You were not attacked. You were simply shown where you are wrong.

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Follow what ever you want. The MODs warning was about ceasing personal attacks. You were not attacked. You were simply shown where you are wrong.
    You showed nothing of the sort. You only showed that you don't comprehend the fact that there was a difference of Iraq's WMD program between 1998 and 2002. In '98 he had them. In '02 he didn't, no matter how you twist the facts.

    And most people here would consider an agreement with TD's statement the same as a personal attack.
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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil505 View Post
    Also, let's not lose sight of what we are arguing here: You say it perfectly OK for our country to TORTURE individuals (who haven' been convicted of ANY crime) & I say no it isn't OK.
    I don't think anybody is stating that it is OK to "torture." The argument is whether or not what America did to the very few is to be considered as torture.

    You people are so obsessed with international law, narrowly interpreted, that you seek to handcuff our efforts, which allow the terrorists to turn borders and legalisms against us. But laws lose their validity when they no longer protect those who adhere to them. People are afraid to change in a changing world. When a foriegn state either cannot or will not curb terrorists or international criminals operating from its territory, we have a moral, practical, and legal right to act. In an age of innovation, we cling to a nineteenth-century model of international relations.

    The same is true when it comes to prisoner treatment where we cling to Geneva rules that do not pertain to this new enemy. Our enemy doesn't come dressed in military uniform and under national banner. This enemy defies the rules established at Geneva by waging war via terrorist means and against civilians, yet Westerners seek to protect them with the same rules they defy. We go far beyond the norm when caring for these prisoners and far beyond that of anyody else on earth. We ensure that they have their Qu'rans and prayer time even as their region's monsters and media accuse us of being converting crusaders, which is validated by self-righteous Westerners seeking to look better than those actually fighting this war. We ensure their religious diets are established just to satisfy those same Westerners. But we are constantly having to deal with the crocodile tears about the waterboarding of a few as if Geneva is set in stone no matter how much the world and our enemies change.

    Part of the problem is that people are abslutely in love with their fantasies and illusions. They want their "white capital on the hill" despite the facts of what made us the most powerful nation in history. They want to be able to keep thinking that purity and goodness determines the favorable outcome everytime. But part of the problem is something else. People absolutely refuse to understand this enemy. While Westerners seek to prove their arrogance and self-righteous attitudes by forcing Western rules (Geneva) towards the entire globe's cultures, this enemy has their own set of rules. They believe that it is absolutely legal to kill civilians as combatants for their social and religious prescriptions. And when we deal with religious men of the fanatical extreme, we do not deal with the practical. We no longer deal with the Western manners of the glove-slap-to-duel civility or the "Name, Rank, Social Security Number please" culture. (Speaking of change...Social Security numbers in an age of Internet identity theft is yet another change from Geneva's rules isn't it?)

    No...this is an enemy that works in cells, schemes, and future planning. His tools hinge on surprise and global attention. The more brutal, deadlier, sensational the better. Our CIA, still shaking off the effects of seeing the Cold War come to an abrupt end, is still even beginning to understand this enemy and how to properly deal with them. Our military has evolved from basic conventionalism to special operations in Military Operations Other Than War (MOOTW). And our prisoner handling must also evolve beyond the foolish please and thank yous' that worked fine enough against normal prisoners of war who had group information about military movements and numbers but not against those who hold individual intelligence about apocalyptic terrorism and of whose mission is the war itself...not an earthly end goal.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-10-09 at 03:52 PM.

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    Re: UN torture envoy: US must prosecute Bush lawyers

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    I don't think anybody is stating that it is OK to "torture." The argument is whether or not what America did to the very few is to be considered as torture.
    The argument is whether or not it's appropriate to prosecute attorneys for giving good-faith legal advice simply because you don't like that advice. What that would do to the right to legal counsel is staggering, but no -- it must be about champing at the bit to "torture" people.

    (And it's profoundly hypocritical, anyway, because Obama's Justice Department is right now relying on that exact advice in its case against John Demjanjuk. I guess Obama and Holder have been added to the defendant list. Right?)
    Last edited by Harshaw; 05-10-09 at 03:58 PM.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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