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50% tax rate for high earners

Some of the richest people in society are corporate execs, and what do they do that's so important that warrants them having tens of millions of dollars to their name? Doctors, teachers, engineers, the people who do the real work and build societies, make much less than people who own the banks, and who own the factories.

I don't feel the need to shed a tear when the people getting a free ride on the labour of others are suddenly taxed higher for their overinflated earnings. There is no threat to the economy by doing so. So execs. will make $500 000 per year instead of $1 million. Oh no, how awful!
 
Hey I actually agree with you, however I am also a realist.

Like it or not, we need government, else we would have anarchy. Like it or not we need government else we would never have dug ourselves out of the dark ages. Like it or not, we need government to keep order in the streets and people safe. Like it or not, we need government to be the binding force of society, so we have this thing called "a country". Like it or not we need that government to provide an umbrella of services that we have agreed to provide via the government. Like it or not we need government.

We are most in agreement on these things then but I think when it comes to the details, is where we diverge.

I would love to have no government, but then I also know that the rich and powerful would do anything and everything in their power keep the masses down.. they did it for 2000+ years so why should they not try again if it was not for government? At least with government we have in a democracy, a say in how things are run... in principle.

The most influential do the same thing now.

They control and guide our government regardless of whether what we think we control.

All this costs money and to get that money, we have chosen a system of taxation. That is life, and like it or not you DO get up in the morning to earn a living well knowing that a part of that effort will go to the tax man to fund the society that you are living in. It goes to the police, army, roads, welfare and so on.

This is were we disagree.

I think a lot of these programs are waste. Anything more than a 5% tax on income is ridiculous to me.


I also agree fully, that high taxes on the rich punishes that drive " to do more", and frankly I hate it. However saying that, I understand the principle and the practice of doing so, and as long as that top tax rate is not insane like it was decades ago in some countries including the US (60+%, even 90+% in some places), then I can live with the fact that on the last Euros that I make, that I will pay a higher tax rate on them. This is because I know, that my sacrifice will provide in part, services for my fellow citizens and my self. It also means that the "weaker" in society who do not earn what I earn, can get a bit of help by a lower tax bill and maybe just maybe, be able to work their way up the never ending ladder of prosperity. It is also a very well known fact, the more you earn, the better you can pay someone to exploit the tax code, so in fact in the end you pay relatively less than someone earning far less than you.

That is an old wives tales in my opinion.

If they could just hire someone to manipulate the tax code to pay less the rich wouldn't be paying for most of government.

A 50% tax rate at any income level is absurd, that means that you are working half of your time exclusively for government.

Like it or not, our societies come with a cost for everyone.. that cost is taxes. Without taxes, our societies would be a miss match of tribal areas run by warlords, waring on each other over resources and women and probably STILL paying some sort of tax to the "ruler".

The poor don't pay for the services they use, everyone else does.

It creates an almost permanent under class because there is no reason to achieve if you don't have to do anything to get your income.
 
Some of the richest people in society are corporate execs, and what do they do that's so important that warrants them having tens of millions of dollars to their name? Doctors, teachers, engineers, the people who do the real work and build societies, make much less than people who own the banks, and who own the factories.

I own the factory I work at. My ownership is represented with shares of stock but I own a portion non the less.

The same goes with banks unless its a credit union, in that scenario the account holders are the owners.

I don't feel the need to shed a tear when the people getting a free ride on the labour of others are suddenly taxed higher for their overinflated earnings. There is no threat to the economy by doing so. So execs. will make $500 000 per year instead of $1 million. Oh no, how awful!

They had to do something to get to that point in life.

They didn't just wake up and say I'll make a few calls and become a corporate CEO today.

When you manage a business of that size there is a lot of responsibility and pressure.

Just look at the former CEO of Freddie Mac, he killed himself and he was a freaking millionaire.
 
Some of the richest people in society are corporate execs, and what do they do that's so important that warrants them having tens of millions of dollars to their name? Doctors, teachers, engineers, the people who do the real work and build societies, make much less than people who own the banks, and who own the factories.

These executives are not paid ultra high salaries because they bring very little of value to the table. For the most part, paying a CEO such a high salary is due to the nature of the job, CEO's are paid to increase capital value in their respective firms. Here is an example: If during the 3 years of CEO John Doe's tenure, the stock price not only goes up 25% ($10 billion) but debt is reduced by another 25% (saving $1 billion in liabilities annually), is the CEO worth $100,000,000 per year?

If your answer is no, then i cannot take your opinion seriously.

I don't feel the need to shed a tear when the people getting a free ride on the labour of others are suddenly taxed higher for their overinflated earnings. There is no threat to the economy by doing so. So execs. will make $500 000 per year instead of $1 million. Oh no, how awful!

How are you so sure there is no threat to the economy? Do you actually believe taxing higher incomes will create a "talent drain" as highly capable bankers and entrepreneurs flee to other areas where taxes are considerably lower?

On top of that, rich people are more likely to purchase highly durable goods, of which, the greatest amount of employment is compensated.

Less money for British executives equals less Rolls Royce's being built, and sold. Less workers making Rolls's and less Rolls Royce salespeople equate to smaller amounts of expenditure, be it food, entertainment, housing (yes people losing jobs also have a tendency to default on their mortgages).

Class envy is not a very strong premise.:smash:
 
At-a-glance: Budget 2009

CIGARETTES, ALCOHOL AND FUEL
• Alcohol taxes to go up 2% from midnight - putting the price of the average pint up 1p

• Tax on tobacco to go up by 2% from 6pm - equivalent to an extra 7p on a pack of 20 cigarettes

• Fuel duty to rise by 2p per litre from September, then by 1p a litre above indexation each April for the next four years

My cigarettes are being taxed some more ... AGAIN :boohoo:

Why would you be crying? You should be happy and proud that you can pay for someone elses unemployment and health care. I always though this is what you Liberals wanted and supported?
 
I fully understand what liberty is. But liberty comes with a cost and a responsibility and that is something you dont seem to understand.
Sir, you have not a clue what liberty is, nor what responsibility is.

If you had a hint of clue, you would know that liberty is giving the individual the widest possible latitude in his choices, while not shielding him from the full consequences of his failures, nor denying to him the full benefits of his successes.

If you had a notion of responsibility, you would know that responsibility and accountability come when the individual bears the full brunt of all that proceeds from his choices--that if he is reckless with his money he will have no means to support himself and his household, that if he is reckless with his health his ending will be most unpleasant, that if he is reckless with his safety he will be injured and forced to labor on thus handicapped. You would know the capriciousness of mandating that others gift the reckless man funds to support himself, medicines for his ill health, accommodations for his self-inflicted handicaps, and you would know such capriciousness is neither fair nor wise. You would know that burdening all men with the duty of caring for all men spares each man the consequence of his own folly, while making him answerable for the folly of others; you would know that such burdens are the antithesis of justice.

No, sir, collectivist thinking is bereft of all notion of liberty or responsibility, and collectivist thinkers reject all notion of liberty and responsibility.
 
Why would you be crying? You should be happy and proud that you can pay for someone elses unemployment and health care. I always though this is what you Liberals wanted and supported?

I was upset but then i just paid for a 20 pack and didn't even notice a difference so hey, i got over it pretty quickly.
 
Sir, you have not a clue what liberty is, nor what responsibility is.

If you had a hint of clue, you would know that liberty is giving the individual the widest possible latitude in his choices, while not shielding him from the full consequences of his failures, nor denying to him the full benefits of his successes.

If you had a notion of responsibility, you would know that responsibility and accountability come when the individual bears the full brunt of all that proceeds from his choices--that if he is reckless with his money he will have no means to support himself and his household, that if he is reckless with his health his ending will be most unpleasant, that if he is reckless with his safety he will be injured and forced to labor on thus handicapped. You would know the capriciousness of mandating that others gift the reckless man funds to support himself, medicines for his ill health, accommodations for his self-inflicted handicaps, and you would know such capriciousness is neither fair nor wise. You would know that burdening all men with the duty of caring for all men spares each man the consequence of his own folly, while making him answerable for the folly of others; you would know that such burdens are the antithesis of justice.

No, sir, collectivist thinking is bereft of all notion of liberty or responsibility, and collectivist thinkers reject all notion of liberty and responsibility.

Bravo sir....outstanding! :applaud
 
Hey I actually agree with you, however I am also a realist.
Defense of welfare is not realism, but justification of indulgence.

All this costs money and to get that money, we have chosen a system of taxation. That is life, and like it or not you DO get up in the morning to earn a living well knowing that a part of that effort will go to the tax man to fund the society that you are living in. It goes to the police, army, roads, welfare and so on.

Neat rhetoric, but completely skips over the part where the propriety of what society funds is justified. Army and roads I can support. Police, being a decided evil and at best marginally necessary, enjoys from me a very limited and most penurious support. Government welfare in all its forms is a predation on my purse and needs to be ended. Not curtailed, not restricted, not restrained, but obliterated in its entirety--such evil needs to be excised from our society permanently.

You may, of course, disagree with my perspective--such is the right of every free man, even those who despise their freedom--but unless your position is to despise my freedom alongside your own, your argument fails unless you can demonstrate that, despite my protestation on such expenditures, it is just and fair and proper that I be taxed on their behalf.

Preaching the virtue and necessity of taxation is meaningless cant until you have made such a case.
 
These tax rates are awfully high.
Has anyone in government done the first thing in cutting spending ?
The politicians are, IMO, fools..economic fools...both Liberals and Conservatives.....
Government has grown to be too large, too wasteful...much like General Motors...
They should also learn to say "no"...to the people who want this, want that....
In our country, people worry so much about "environmental inpact"....not one word about the economic impact....
 
Sir, you have not a clue what liberty is, nor what responsibility is.

Very funny. You should be the last to talk about responsibility, being a backer of the Republican party.

If you had a hint of clue, you would know that liberty is giving the individual the widest possible latitude in his choices, while not shielding him from the full consequences of his failures, nor denying to him the full benefits of his successes.

And if you had a clue, you would realise that what you are talking about is a pipe dream along the lines of free market, santa claus, true communism and what not. Liberty has always and always will be limited within the confines of what the society you live in deems as proper.

You sir live in a fantasy, I live in the real world. I too want as much liberty as possible, to decide my own destiny and to do what the hell I want and I have that but up to a point. I know that if I do not stay with in the law then I will risk being punished. I also know that for my liberty, there is a price. That price is both in monetary form (taxes) and in never actually achieving the full theoretical liberty that you so dream off. Like it or not, we live in a society, a group of many people, and total liberty is anarchy and unacceptable, and hence we have laws, rules and responsibilities to make sure that our civilization does not turn into another "survival of the fittest".

If you had a notion of responsibility, you would know that responsibility and accountability come when the individual bears the full brunt of all that proceeds from his choices--that if he is reckless with his money he will have no means to support himself and his household, that if he is reckless with his health his ending will be most unpleasant, that if he is reckless with his safety he will be injured and forced to labor on thus handicapped.

And? Do you think we in Europe dont bear the full responsibility and accountability for our actions? What planet are you on?

You would know the capriciousness of mandating that others gift the reckless man funds to support himself, medicines for his ill health, accommodations for his self-inflicted handicaps, and you would know such capriciousness is neither fair nor wise.

Fair? Come on. Nothing in life is fair. It never has been and never will be. If life was fair, then you would not have to pay for roads in the next county, but guess what, you do. If life was fair, then you would only have to pay for the things that you actually use in society, but guess what... that would mean society would not have things like roads, military and so on. If life was fair, then you should not pay for anyone medical bills or research.. but guess what that would mean you would be at huge risk of death by common ailments.

As for the man who fails or falls ill. It is in NO way in societies interest what so ever in having large portions of society in ill health. It is also in no way in societies interest in having large portions of society in poverty with no means what so ever to get out of the problem.

If you go back 100 years, we had near true liberty for a small section of the population. The rich and royals, could pretty much do what they wanted and that left a huge portion of the population in mass poverty, no education and no hope. What came out of that.. socialism, mass riots and revolutions.

You would know that burdening all men with the duty of caring for all men spares each man the consequence of his own folly, while making him answerable for the folly of others; you would know that such burdens are the antithesis of justice.

Hogwash. That is a communist ideal that is like liberty a pipe dream. No where in the west do "all men have the duty to care for all men". What we do have is a system (good or bad) that helps those in need when needed. Now in Europe we go by the government way, and in the US you do it by the charity way. In reality there is not much difference. Charity is against the liberty principle, since it is helping someone that is worse off than you.

No, sir, collectivist thinking is bereft of all notion of liberty or responsibility, and collectivist thinkers reject all notion of liberty and responsibility.

Again more hogwash. Collectivist thinking has been the corner stone of society since the dawn of time. It is hilarious to hear you considering that one of the biggest "collectivist thinking" outfits through history is the church, which is at the cornerstone of the party you support and the ideals which I suspect you support. It is also there that the idea of "responsibility and accountability" has been hollowed out year after year.

You claim liberty is being accountable and responsible for your own actions.. fine, then where was this during the last 9 years in the US?

Sorry Sir.. you live in a fantasy world, where as the rest of us live in the real world, where nothing is black and white, but a whole lot of grey.
 
Hogwash. That is a communist ideal that is like liberty a pipe dream. No where in the west do "all men have the duty to care for all men". What we do have is a system (good or bad) that helps those in need when needed.
Please explain, in concrete tems, the difference in the two.

Charity is against the liberty principle, since it is helping someone that is worse off than you
On the contrary - true charity necessarily stems from liberty, in that you choose to give to those that you think need it and you are free to choose to not give to anyone.. This contrasts with the welfare state where you are forced to give to whomever the goverment decides has a 'need'.
 
Defense of welfare is not realism, but justification of indulgence.

Again more hogwash. Where did I defend welfare? Now I accept it, for the good of society, but I in no way like it, especially when it is abused. I accept that we need a military, but I dont like it. That is reality. I, unlike you, do not live the fake ideals of theory that looks good on paper but can never and has never been in force in reality.

Even in times where it has even gotten close to achieving the ideals and theories that you so love, the impact on society was very clear.. it was the dark ages, where free thought was heresy and people were executed for having an opinion.

Neat rhetoric, but completely skips over the part where the propriety of what society funds is justified. Army and roads I can support. Police, being a decided evil and at best marginally necessary, enjoys from me a very limited and most penurious support. Government welfare in all its forms is a predation on my purse and needs to be ended. Not curtailed, not restricted, not restrained, but obliterated in its entirety--such evil needs to be excised from our society permanently.

As I thought, a cold heart. Why dont you move to Somalia? I mean that is your dream world after all, no taxes, full liberty and most important of all. no government welfare! Just remember your guns, since you will have to defend yourself from the mobs.

Let me ask you this. If you have say 1 man that gets ill. Is it not better to provide help for that man, than let him suffer? How about if that man suffers from a disease that is easily transmitted? Is not better to help him than letting it spread? What if the disease was ebola? And what if that man was you.

You may, of course, disagree with my perspective--such is the right of every free man, even those who despise their freedom--but unless your position is to despise my freedom alongside your own, your argument fails unless you can demonstrate that, despite my protestation on such expenditures, it is just and fair and proper that I be taxed on their behalf.

Of course I disagree with your perspective. It is narrow-minded, short sighted and worst of all, a catalyst to catastrophe. We had it your way once.. it was called the dark ages, and we still have it in some parts of the world..... pick a failed country and there you have it.

Preaching the virtue and necessity of taxation is meaningless cant until you have made such a case.

Eh? missing some words there cause it makes no sense.
 
Please explain, in concrete tems, the difference in the two.

The difference is simple to me.

I do not "care" for the 99% of the population that is not in need, but I do "care" for the 1% of the population that is in need. I do not "care" for the healthy children but I do "care" for the not healthy children.

Now if the statement is "all men care for all men", then you are over in the full communist ideal. That means that I care for you, and you for me, regardless if I desire or need it or if you do. This statement means full equality like in the communist world, and that sir is a pipe dream.

Now you might not see any difference but I see a huge difference.

On the contrary - true charity necessarily stems from liberty, in that you choose to give to those that you think need it and you are free to choose to not give to anyone.. This contrasts with the welfare state where you are forced to give to whomever the goverment decides has a 'need'.

Charity stems from the failure of society. The need for charity means that not only that certain people have failed but that society has failed. Those seeking charity are not all deadbeats far from it, but often people who have not had the same opportunities in life that you and I have had. Charity, especially when it comes with strings (religious charities) is a clear sign that society has a problem and is refusing to deal with it, but also most importantly, refusing to bear the burden as a society for its own failings.
 
PeteEU does not, and never will, understand liberty. Collectivists, by their very nature, are incapable of recognizing the most essential axioms pertaining to liberty.
 
As I thought, a cold heart. Why dont you move to Somalia? I mean that is your dream world after all, no taxes, full liberty and most important of all. no government welfare! Just remember your guns, since you will have to defend yourself from the mobs.

Somalia is the perfect example, i mean. No Government, no taxes, no gun control. lol :D
 
I do not "care" for the 99% of the population that is not in need, but I do "care" for the 1% of the population that is in need. I do not "care" for the healthy children but I do "care" for the not healthy children.
Seems to me that you hold the position that, as a society, we are all responsible for one another, that we all depend on one another, and that, for our society to survive (much less flourish)( we must curb our individual wants/needs/desires for the continuation of the common good.

If that's not "all men care for all men", its pretty darn close.


Charity stems from the failure of society.
The need for charity means that not only that certain people have failed but that society has failed
False premise.
"Charity" is based on "need", which is subjective and relative.
People in 4th-world ****holes look at those that 'need' and receive 'charity' in the west and think they live like kings -- the high standard of living for those in the west that 'need' charity illustrates the the SUCCESS, not the failure of a Western society.

Never mind that society doesnt exist to keep people out of relative poverty, and so that people living in relative poverty doesnt in any way illustrate a failure in that society.
 
Very funny. You should be the last to talk about responsibility, being a backer of the Republican party.

How ironic to see the above comments from a rabid hyper partisan Liberal Obama maniac. I suppose you also fantasize that Democrats are much more responsible spending our nation into a $1.8 trillion deficit without one debate as to how they will pay for it all.

You just can't fabricate the level of willful denial it must take to be a Liberal or Democrat these days.

The only thing more hysterical is when Liberals point to the Bush deficits when confronted with that question; how are you paying for a $1.8 trillion deficit?

Carry on Pete; I understand your desperation trying to defend such gross incompetence and patently naive foreign policies, after all, you spent so much time deriding the other side for doing so much less.
 
Having a "R" next your name doesn't automatically make you a conservative and having a "D" next to your name doesn't automatically make you a liberal.

While that is indeed an absolutely true statement, the presidents in question suggest your assertion is in fact wrong. Taxes went way down under super spending liberal Reagan, and did not go down under Eisenhower who is often claimed to be one of the last actual conservative presidents in US history. Remember that Clinton was in many ways a fiscal conservative who pushed for increasing taxation specifically to reduce the debt.
 
Why shouldn't they?

Because they earned that money,not the government and not those mooching off of tax payers. (just in case someone else didn't point this out).Why the **** should anyone be a slave a to the government?
 
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I don't really care.

The rich has had a damn sweet ride in UK for the last decade - The rest of us do not have a option of moving abroad if taxes rise, we pay taxes. Why shouldn't they?




Seems fair to me tho i do think as well as raising it 5% on the rich, they should bring it up by 1/2% on everyone.
You're a communist who doesn't respect private property.
 
That is a communist ideal that is like liberty a pipe dream.
I see Ethereal and I were correct from the outset. You are indeed quite ignorant about liberty, else you would not consider it a pipe dream.

Unsurprising also that you would be ignorant about charity, and imprudently deride it as a "failing."

Charity is not failure, nor is liberty a pipe dream. Liberty is a very real and very necessary condition for human life to reach its fullest flower. Charity is the culmination of liberty, and is predicated upon liberty. Where there is no liberty there is no charity.

Far from being failure, charity is liberty's victory over misfortune. Liberty is the choice of the free man to in his prosperity be generous to his less fortunate neighbors. Indeed, the United States is a living demonstration of this reality and this virtue, for not only does the United States government give more in foreign aid to the impoverished nations of the world, but United States citizens contribute more to charitable causes than any other nation. Liberty enables charity. Liberty encourages charity. Society does neither, and can do neither.

The flaw in the Marxist thesis (and your rhetoric is quite Marxist in nature, even if you opt to disclaim him as your inspiration) is the illusion that society has any power to act. Society does not act, for society does not choose, nor can it decide. Action, decision, choice, are expressions of the mind and of the will, each intrinsic only to the individual, and never to the collective.

There is no consciousness in the group; at best there is consensus, but no more than this. Thus neither can there be will, nor mind, and from this it can be seen that the group cannot choose, cannot decide, and will never act.

Thus in any society liberty becomes the inevitable supreme civic virtue; liberty is the recognition that, though man may seek the communion of his neighbors, he must choose, decide, and act as an individual man. Though man desires the companionship of his fellows, he must answer for his sins alone, and so it follows that he must enjoy first claim to the fruits of his industry alone.

When a man is thus charged to answer for himself, and rewarded with the fruits of his own industry, he is given every reason to seek always the wise choice, the prudent decision, the careful act, to chart a path that maximizes his own prosperity. When the charge and the reward are remove from a man, his reason for wise choice and prudent decision diminish. To the degree that men are denied both charge and reward, to that degree men inspired to unwise deeds.

By charging charity a failure of society, you charge that men should not answer for themselves, nor should enjoy reward of their labors. You charge that the group as a whole must answer for each individual, and must likewise have prior claim to the fruits of the individual's labor. Your charge against charity admits of no other origin, for society--the group--cannot so fail unless it is first endowed with the charge and with the claim. Thus your charge against charity is wrong; it proceeds from the wrong view of society and a wrong understanding of liberty and its necessity.

Thus it is that your rhetoric and your politics are completely, unalterably, and unmistakably wrong.
 
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So where will all the rock stars who live in Switzerland for tax reasons go?
 
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