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Thread: 50% tax rate for high earners

  1. #81
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    CLASS ENVY ALERT

    For the life of me I cannot understand the preoccupation with what OTHER PEOPLE EARN.

    The envious nature of such individuals and groups.
    As if knocking down the wealthy will help their lives... when in fact it has the opposite effect.

    To me such behavior is like mental HIV... the brain is tainted with a virtually incurable disease called jealousy.
    Fortunately there is a cure for Mental HIV/Jealousy:
    Personal responsibility, embracing free markets... and Liberty.

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Some of the richest people in society are corporate execs, and what do they do that's so important that warrants them having tens of millions of dollars to their name?
    Obviously somebody or some board believed their stewardship was worth the money; it's called supply and demand. There are a lot of teachers, but few that can run a billion dollar corporation.

    Doctors, teachers, engineers, the people who do the real work and build societies, make much less than people who own the banks, and who own the factories.
    And what do you want? These people to benefit from the labor of others?

    You obviously have never started a business... had sleepless nights thinking about making payroll, how to better the company, how to secure jobs by making huge profit. I get the impression you think businesses open and... Voila monsieur, here is your profit.

    I don't feel the need to shed a tear when the people getting a free ride on the labour of others are suddenly taxed higher for their overinflated earnings. There is no threat to the economy by doing so. So execs. will make $500 000 per year instead of $1 million. Oh no, how awful!
    Who are you to decide what"overinflated" is?

    And if you aren't deciding... who does?
    How about Mr. Market...?

    Everyone is free to choose their role in life... nobody is forcing anyone to be a teacher, janitor, business owner... YET.

    .
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  2. #82
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    The problem Orius mate is that the rich and corporations don't actually pay much in taxes, the tax system in fact helps to support them, big business and economic consolidation. The rich and corps can far more easily push their tax burden onto others and they get enough from the state to offset it anyway.
    You may be one of the few people I've met that realize this. Often those who decry the tax system as being "unfair" to the rich fail to realize just how the tax system is written by the rich to favor the rich.

    You may be interested in this post from another place
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  3. #83
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Haha, i'm not a socialist and no i don't think 70% is acceptable, i think it's ridiculous actually seeing the mortages here are off the rails.

    Okay you drive a hard bargain, If i do 3 of those on the list, can i skip the 70% taxes?
    Ah... no.

    Taxes come first.
    You can skip the taxes after you've died... I ... er ... mean... after we've taxed your death.

    .
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  4. #84
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    You may be one of the few people I've met that realize this. Often those who decry the tax system as being "unfair" to the rich fail to realize just how the tax system is written by the rich to favor the rich.

    You may be interested in this post from another place
    Our loyal defender of the existing tax code rises from the mire yet again.

    And you shirk at being called a socialist... my, my.

    PS. I'm Curious Obvious Child... how is your moveon.org poll doing about members in DP?
    I'm really, really, really curious as to where I stand... Not.
    LOL.

    Have a great weekend.
    Last edited by zimmer; 04-25-09 at 12:48 PM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  5. #85
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Our loyal defender of the existing tax code rises from the mire yet again.
    Amusing. What I have defended is use of the tax code to help business. Given your utter failure in the other thread and your inability to actually cite any specifics whatsoever, all you really have is blanket statements. No actual understanding of the tax code.

    And you shirk at being called a socialist... my, my.
    What more annoys me is your love for unilaterally redefining terms to suit your argument. You essentially called me a Socialist for wanting to fund an agency to get tax cheats to pay up. I didn't know that balancing budgets by enforcing existing tax code is "Socialist."

    PS. I'm Curious Obvious Child... how is your moveon.org poll doing about members in DP?
    Not sure what you're talking about. However, you may want to check out my thread on Leftist agenda to see just how inaccurate your belief system is.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    You may be one of the few people I've met that realize this. Often those who decry the tax system as being "unfair" to the rich fail to realize just how the tax system is written by the rich to favor the rich.

    You may be interested in this post from another place
    Very interesting.

    You should check out the work of Kevin Carson.

    Here's his blog.

    Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism

    And these works are very interesting and relatred.

    Check out part two of this work.

    Studies in Mutualist Political Economy

    And this one is fantastic and on how the system, and I mean the entire gov't-corporate apparatus, benefits large corporations.

    Mutualist Blog: Free Market Anti-Capitalism: Organization Theory: An Individualist Anarchist Perspective
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    The problem Orius mate is that the rich and corporations don't actually pay much in taxes, the tax system in fact helps to support them, big business and economic consolidation. The rich and corps can far more easily push their tax burden onto others and they get enough from the state to offset it anyway.
    Which is why there is so much protest now that they are about to be taxed more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    For instance take one of the myriad examples; did you know that heavy trucks do just about 100% of roadbed damage and yet in the US these vehicles and their owners pay less than 50% of the money to maintain the road system? (figures take from Kevin Carson's Organisation Theory: A libertarian perspective.)The subsidies to industry, and particularly large industry are immense.
    Under this argument, it would make more sense to tax people or companies according to their exact burden to society... but such a system would be difficult or impossible to implement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    This idea of large taxes for the rich is not going to achieve much and is trying to use the system they control against them while leaving them with still most of the control.
    This is an interesting perspective. The government is technically supposed to be separate from the rich elites, but I have always believed they are intrinsically linked. Even so, taking money from the rich is still putting it into the public system which is accessed by all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    You'd do better to lower the amount of state intervention in the economy and the level of gov't a lot of thing take place at, sure start with those that more obviously benefit the wealthy but when they are gone a lot of the rest will be less necessary anyway.
    Lack of state intervention in economy is why we are having a global recession stemming from the U.S. More regulation of business and not less is what is needed to stem future disasters. Mostly, I think greed just needs to be checked, but since corporations basically control government now, I see no end to it.

    I am in favor of capitalism but not corporatism.

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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree with this considering the U.S. gov is spending bucket loads just on them.
    Right but that's because of consistent deregulation over the course of several government administrations. Businesses will always seek profit but the ways in which they are allowed to are shaped by government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The younger generation is being left with the bill.
    Yeah.... no one seems to think ahead anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    It makes even better sense to save for hard times or cut spending.
    Relating to my previous comment, saving for the future is the last thing government and corporations are capable of. Quarterly reports are the extent of their longterm financial vision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Wages have gone up very well in the past 20 years.
    In the Western world the gap between rich and poor has been increasing for some time, and part of this has to do with the disparity between inflation and wage adjustments.

    Income Gap Of Poor, Rich, Widens - CBS News

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I agree that is why requiring one group to pay a larger percentage isn't fair by any means.
    It's fair in principle because they can afford it.

    Though I am now giving more thought to what Wessex said. If the rich are the government, and the government writes the tax code, then reverting to local economy with less government would be the best way to subvert this system.

  9. #89
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Right but that's because of consistent deregulation over the course of several government administrations. Businesses will always seek profit but the ways in which they are allowed to are shaped by government.
    I'm happiest when everything is equally deregulated.

    When deregulation happens in only one sector we get things like the housing bubble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Yeah.... no one seems to think ahead anymore.
    I'm very unhappy with what has and still is transpiring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Relating to my previous comment, saving for the future is the last thing government and corporations are capable of. Quarterly reports are the extent of their longterm financial vision.
    They could if they wanted to.

    Corporate growth would be slower but more steady if they borrowed less and saved more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    In the Western world the gap between rich and poor has been increasing for some time, and part of this has to do with the disparity between inflation and wage adjustments.

    Income Gap Of Poor, Rich, Widens - CBS News
    The numbers for the income gap and always skewed from what I've read before.

    If you lump in a billionaire with millionaires it will draw a bad picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It's fair in principle because they can afford it.

    Though I am now giving more thought to what Wessex said. If the rich are the government, and the government writes the tax code, then reverting to local economy with less government would be the best way to subvert this system.
    That doesn't make it fair.

    I agree with Wessexman because local taxes means local control.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #90
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Though I am now giving more thought to what Wessex said. If the rich are the government, and the government writes the tax code, then reverting to local economy with less government would be the best way to subvert this system.
    Well I certainly recommend you check out those links I gave above and this one. It pretty much is the same as one of those but shorter.

    The Iron Fist Behind the Invisible Hand

    It is Kevin Carson's The Iron Fist behind the invisible hand and very informative, it is mainly historical but does show the continued state intervention on behalf of large organisations and the rich. I mean he does use the term free market in that annoying way like it is something separate from any given society and has a life of its own, I prefer just to talk about free societies and individuals but apart from that he is a very good author even if all his solutions(he is an individualist anarchist in the tradition of Proudhon, Lysander Spooner and Benjamin Tucker.) are not for everyone(including myself.)
    Which is why there is so much protest now that they are about to be taxed more.
    Protest from who? As Obvious child showed in that link many of the rich don't even care or support getting taxed further.

    I don't think that by taxing them punitively that something cannot be achieved but it does seem a very roundabout way to me. It is like using a system set up to benefit them against them without really getting rid of most of their control of it.

    In my opinion you'd do better removing or lowering most taxes and implementing a Georgist land value tax system(which would really hit the rich but justly and efficiently and where they can't avoid it or move the burden), hopefully collected locally, and perhaps having tariffs get the rest of the revenue needed, I'd then remove corporate personhood and privileges and scale back corporate welfare until I'd removed it completely. This would be the first parts of any economic changes I'd make.

    Under this argument, it would make more sense to tax people or companies according to their exact burden to society... but such a system would be difficult or impossible to implement.
    Well yes that could be a solution or you could simply withdraw the support to them by lessening gov't involvement in the economy but starting rather than with welfare payments that help the poor, while of course keeping them more controlable, starting with corporate wealthfare.

    This is an interesting perspective. The government is technically supposed to be separate from the rich elites, but I have always believed they are intrinsically linked. Even so, taking money from the rich is still putting it into the public system which is accessed by all.
    Yes, the gov't and the elites have many many cross-overs. They are not the same thing, it is not a conspiracy or Marx's executive council of the ruling classes but the clout the business elites wield is still immense.

    You can pursue this agenda by taxing the rich punitively and even by trying to get hold of the system but to me that is inherently dangerous and is ultimately counter-productive. Far better to dismantle the centralised-system that supports the rich and have more less gov't, more local power in my book.

    Lack of state intervention in economy is why we are having a global recession stemming from the U.S. More regulation of business and not less is what is needed to stem future disasters. Mostly, I think greed just needs to be checked, but since corporations basically control government now, I see no end to it.
    Actually there was always massive gov't regulation in the economy, there was only a lack in a few areas. Basically it is a battle between liberal corporatism and neo-liberalism. They are both very interventionist(for instance Congress' own report showed that in 1980 direct subsidies to industry were larger than corporate profits.) but they are slightly different.

    The former(liberal-corporatism seen particularly in the post-war decades) is about a shared agreement between big gov't, big business and big labour and a management of the economy through these outlets whereas neo-liberalism is simply about a more dominant role for big business, particularly at the expense of big labour. The later is slightly more dynamic in areas, it called for the end of protectionism and some areas of liberal-corporatist economic regulation but one should not think that it is particularly less interventionist. Corporate subsidies and supports are still massive.

    I am in favor of capitalism but not corporatism.
    Personally I'd get rid of corporate personhood and privileges or make them guild-like where their privileges and special statuses actually serves society.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 04-26-09 at 12:06 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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