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Thread: 50% tax rate for high earners

  1. #61
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Sir, you have not a clue what liberty is, nor what responsibility is.
    Very funny. You should be the last to talk about responsibility, being a backer of the Republican party.

    If you had a hint of clue, you would know that liberty is giving the individual the widest possible latitude in his choices, while not shielding him from the full consequences of his failures, nor denying to him the full benefits of his successes.
    And if you had a clue, you would realise that what you are talking about is a pipe dream along the lines of free market, santa claus, true communism and what not. Liberty has always and always will be limited within the confines of what the society you live in deems as proper.

    You sir live in a fantasy, I live in the real world. I too want as much liberty as possible, to decide my own destiny and to do what the hell I want and I have that but up to a point. I know that if I do not stay with in the law then I will risk being punished. I also know that for my liberty, there is a price. That price is both in monetary form (taxes) and in never actually achieving the full theoretical liberty that you so dream off. Like it or not, we live in a society, a group of many people, and total liberty is anarchy and unacceptable, and hence we have laws, rules and responsibilities to make sure that our civilization does not turn into another "survival of the fittest".

    If you had a notion of responsibility, you would know that responsibility and accountability come when the individual bears the full brunt of all that proceeds from his choices--that if he is reckless with his money he will have no means to support himself and his household, that if he is reckless with his health his ending will be most unpleasant, that if he is reckless with his safety he will be injured and forced to labor on thus handicapped.
    And? Do you think we in Europe dont bear the full responsibility and accountability for our actions? What planet are you on?

    You would know the capriciousness of mandating that others gift the reckless man funds to support himself, medicines for his ill health, accommodations for his self-inflicted handicaps, and you would know such capriciousness is neither fair nor wise.
    Fair? Come on. Nothing in life is fair. It never has been and never will be. If life was fair, then you would not have to pay for roads in the next county, but guess what, you do. If life was fair, then you would only have to pay for the things that you actually use in society, but guess what... that would mean society would not have things like roads, military and so on. If life was fair, then you should not pay for anyone medical bills or research.. but guess what that would mean you would be at huge risk of death by common ailments.

    As for the man who fails or falls ill. It is in NO way in societies interest what so ever in having large portions of society in ill health. It is also in no way in societies interest in having large portions of society in poverty with no means what so ever to get out of the problem.

    If you go back 100 years, we had near true liberty for a small section of the population. The rich and royals, could pretty much do what they wanted and that left a huge portion of the population in mass poverty, no education and no hope. What came out of that.. socialism, mass riots and revolutions.

    You would know that burdening all men with the duty of caring for all men spares each man the consequence of his own folly, while making him answerable for the folly of others; you would know that such burdens are the antithesis of justice.
    Hogwash. That is a communist ideal that is like liberty a pipe dream. No where in the west do "all men have the duty to care for all men". What we do have is a system (good or bad) that helps those in need when needed. Now in Europe we go by the government way, and in the US you do it by the charity way. In reality there is not much difference. Charity is against the liberty principle, since it is helping someone that is worse off than you.

    No, sir, collectivist thinking is bereft of all notion of liberty or responsibility, and collectivist thinkers reject all notion of liberty and responsibility.
    Again more hogwash. Collectivist thinking has been the corner stone of society since the dawn of time. It is hilarious to hear you considering that one of the biggest "collectivist thinking" outfits through history is the church, which is at the cornerstone of the party you support and the ideals which I suspect you support. It is also there that the idea of "responsibility and accountability" has been hollowed out year after year.

    You claim liberty is being accountable and responsible for your own actions.. fine, then where was this during the last 9 years in the US?

    Sorry Sir.. you live in a fantasy world, where as the rest of us live in the real world, where nothing is black and white, but a whole lot of grey.
    PeteEU

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    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Hogwash. That is a communist ideal that is like liberty a pipe dream. No where in the west do "all men have the duty to care for all men". What we do have is a system (good or bad) that helps those in need when needed.
    Please explain, in concrete tems, the difference in the two.

    Charity is against the liberty principle, since it is helping someone that is worse off than you
    On the contrary - true charity necessarily stems from liberty, in that you choose to give to those that you think need it and you are free to choose to not give to anyone.. This contrasts with the welfare state where you are forced to give to whomever the goverment decides has a 'need'.

  3. #63
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Defense of welfare is not realism, but justification of indulgence.
    Again more hogwash. Where did I defend welfare? Now I accept it, for the good of society, but I in no way like it, especially when it is abused. I accept that we need a military, but I dont like it. That is reality. I, unlike you, do not live the fake ideals of theory that looks good on paper but can never and has never been in force in reality.

    Even in times where it has even gotten close to achieving the ideals and theories that you so love, the impact on society was very clear.. it was the dark ages, where free thought was heresy and people were executed for having an opinion.

    Neat rhetoric, but completely skips over the part where the propriety of what society funds is justified. Army and roads I can support. Police, being a decided evil and at best marginally necessary, enjoys from me a very limited and most penurious support. Government welfare in all its forms is a predation on my purse and needs to be ended. Not curtailed, not restricted, not restrained, but obliterated in its entirety--such evil needs to be excised from our society permanently.
    As I thought, a cold heart. Why dont you move to Somalia? I mean that is your dream world after all, no taxes, full liberty and most important of all. no government welfare! Just remember your guns, since you will have to defend yourself from the mobs.

    Let me ask you this. If you have say 1 man that gets ill. Is it not better to provide help for that man, than let him suffer? How about if that man suffers from a disease that is easily transmitted? Is not better to help him than letting it spread? What if the disease was ebola? And what if that man was you.

    You may, of course, disagree with my perspective--such is the right of every free man, even those who despise their freedom--but unless your position is to despise my freedom alongside your own, your argument fails unless you can demonstrate that, despite my protestation on such expenditures, it is just and fair and proper that I be taxed on their behalf.
    Of course I disagree with your perspective. It is narrow-minded, short sighted and worst of all, a catalyst to catastrophe. We had it your way once.. it was called the dark ages, and we still have it in some parts of the world..... pick a failed country and there you have it.

    Preaching the virtue and necessity of taxation is meaningless cant until you have made such a case.
    Eh? missing some words there cause it makes no sense.
    PeteEU

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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Please explain, in concrete tems, the difference in the two.
    The difference is simple to me.

    I do not "care" for the 99% of the population that is not in need, but I do "care" for the 1% of the population that is in need. I do not "care" for the healthy children but I do "care" for the not healthy children.

    Now if the statement is "all men care for all men", then you are over in the full communist ideal. That means that I care for you, and you for me, regardless if I desire or need it or if you do. This statement means full equality like in the communist world, and that sir is a pipe dream.

    Now you might not see any difference but I see a huge difference.

    On the contrary - true charity necessarily stems from liberty, in that you choose to give to those that you think need it and you are free to choose to not give to anyone.. This contrasts with the welfare state where you are forced to give to whomever the goverment decides has a 'need'.
    Charity stems from the failure of society. The need for charity means that not only that certain people have failed but that society has failed. Those seeking charity are not all deadbeats far from it, but often people who have not had the same opportunities in life that you and I have had. Charity, especially when it comes with strings (religious charities) is a clear sign that society has a problem and is refusing to deal with it, but also most importantly, refusing to bear the burden as a society for its own failings.
    PeteEU

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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    PeteEU does not, and never will, understand liberty. Collectivists, by their very nature, are incapable of recognizing the most essential axioms pertaining to liberty.

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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    As I thought, a cold heart. Why dont you move to Somalia? I mean that is your dream world after all, no taxes, full liberty and most important of all. no government welfare! Just remember your guns, since you will have to defend yourself from the mobs.
    Somalia is the perfect example, i mean. No Government, no taxes, no gun control. lol


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    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    I do not "care" for the 99% of the population that is not in need, but I do "care" for the 1% of the population that is in need. I do not "care" for the healthy children but I do "care" for the not healthy children.
    Seems to me that you hold the position that, as a society, we are all responsible for one another, that we all depend on one another, and that, for our society to survive (much less flourish)( we must curb our individual wants/needs/desires for the continuation of the common good.

    If that's not "all men care for all men", its pretty darn close.


    Charity stems from the failure of society.
    The need for charity means that not only that certain people have failed but that society has failed
    False premise.
    "Charity" is based on "need", which is subjective and relative.
    People in 4th-world ****holes look at those that 'need' and receive 'charity' in the west and think they live like kings -- the high standard of living for those in the west that 'need' charity illustrates the the SUCCESS, not the failure of a Western society.

    Never mind that society doesnt exist to keep people out of relative poverty, and so that people living in relative poverty doesnt in any way illustrate a failure in that society.

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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Very funny. You should be the last to talk about responsibility, being a backer of the Republican party.
    How ironic to see the above comments from a rabid hyper partisan Liberal Obama maniac. I suppose you also fantasize that Democrats are much more responsible spending our nation into a $1.8 trillion deficit without one debate as to how they will pay for it all.

    You just can't fabricate the level of willful denial it must take to be a Liberal or Democrat these days.

    The only thing more hysterical is when Liberals point to the Bush deficits when confronted with that question; how are you paying for a $1.8 trillion deficit?

    Carry on Pete; I understand your desperation trying to defend such gross incompetence and patently naive foreign policies, after all, you spent so much time deriding the other side for doing so much less.

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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Having a "R" next your name doesn't automatically make you a conservative and having a "D" next to your name doesn't automatically make you a liberal.
    While that is indeed an absolutely true statement, the presidents in question suggest your assertion is in fact wrong. Taxes went way down under super spending liberal Reagan, and did not go down under Eisenhower who is often claimed to be one of the last actual conservative presidents in US history. Remember that Clinton was in many ways a fiscal conservative who pushed for increasing taxation specifically to reduce the debt.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: 50% tax rate for high earners

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Why shouldn't they?
    Because they earned that money,not the government and not those mooching off of tax payers. (just in case someone else didn't point this out).Why the **** should anyone be a slave a to the government?
    Last edited by jamesrage; 04-24-09 at 08:41 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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