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Thread: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

  1. #51
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    Re: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    The idea that a 15 year old is a grown man is absurd. I can even think of my own mentality at age 15 vs. 18 or 19, and the difference is large. (As an aside, I also think that the difference between 19 and 23-24 is large as well). Developmentally you are not in the same place at all. I can think back on the mistakes I made as a 15 year old because I was too immature to understand.

    Yes, a 15 year old, generally, knows right from wrong, but if you've been raised in international waters by ADULT pirates then your moral compass does not match that of U.S. laws or the laws of other countries. But this is the United States we're talking about... generally a criminal justice system based on punishment and not rehabilitation. I'm Canadian so my view on this is that the proceedings are barbaric for calling a 15 year old an adult.

    He is young enough that he could be turned around. But no, let's put him in jail and toss away the key.
    Nice to know you believe the child's father that he really is 15.

    If you are old enough and mature enough to make the decision to have sex, or start driving a vehicle, you are old enough to realize that there are some things you just don't do. Like piracy on the seas, DUH.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  2. #52
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    Re: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    Well put. To back this sentiment up with a scientific perspective, I bring facts about human brain development.

    Frontal lobe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    Psychologically, 15 year-olds are far from mature, and while they may appear to know "right vs. wrong," they are still very much undeveloped mentally. I think you'd have to be a pretty sick person to send someone away for the rest of their life because of a dumb mistake they made at 15.


    Duke
    Yeah,,,,, piracy,,,,, just a "dumb mistake"



    .... OOPS!
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  3. #53
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    Re: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    No, treating systems of justice as tools of barbaric retribution based on age-old "eye-for-an-eye" methods which have shown to do nobody any good.
    Playing dumb doesn't become you, but it appears to be your sole option.

    Why's he still wasting oxygen? He was caught red-handed, didn't they have any rope on those ships?



    I agree. Coddling criminals is a waste of time. Time that could be spent better creating reasoned systems of justice based on restorative models and trying criminals in logical and comprehensive ways. Allowing the punishment to fit the crime wouldn't be a bad step, either.



    I cannot understand the conservative's affinity for the bestial, primitive days. Anyone with half a brain knows they certainly weren't better.


    Duke
    I cannot understand why you "rehabilitative" people can't seem to understand that rehabilitating criminals doesn't work.

    Please, show me some sort of evidence that it works for the larger percentage of repeat offenders.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  4. #54
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    Re: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Oh, I'm sorry -- did you take exception to the 'if you dont agree with me, its because you're stupid' comment?

    You can dish it out but can't take it?

    Must be -- else you'd not have to respond with such melodrama.
    Not at all--but it appears that you've given up. It's in your better interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Yeah,,,,, piracy,,,,, just a "dumb mistake"



    .... OOPS!

    Yes, absolutely. You don't know this person's situation. You don't know what it's like to grow up where he grew up, you don't know what sort of options are available to someone like that. But you can go ahead and assume everything's just as easy as your upbringing, everything's all cut and dry; right and wrong, good and evil...while in Somalia, it may be more a matter of starvation and food.
    As far as the biopsychological perspective is concerned, I suggest you give the facts of brain development a more of an examination before you make a fool of yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I cannot understand why you "rehabilitative" people can't seem to understand that rehabilitating criminals doesn't work.

    Please, show me some sort of evidence that it works for the larger percentage of repeat offenders.
    If you'd taken the time to read my post, you'd see that I did not mention rehabilitation. But you didn't, and you seem to have a fixation on rehabilitation, so rehabilitation it is then.

    Rehabilitation - Does Correctional Rehabilitation Work?
    In contrast, it is now apparent that rehabilitation programs generally reduce recidivism and, when conducted according to the "principles of effective treatment" (Gendreau), cut reoffending substantially (Andrews and Bonta; Cullen and Gendreau; Lipsey and Wilson; Lurigio). Evidence favorable to rehabilitation has been generated by a statistical technique called meta-analysis. Traditionally, criminologists such as Martinson would read over a group of studies evaluating treatment programs. They would then either describe what the studies found—a narrative review—or try to count how many studies showed that offender treatment worked or did not work—the "ballot box" method. A meta-analysis, however, essentially computes a batting average across all studies, calculating the average impact of treatment on recidivism. Using this method, the existing research, which now involves hundreds of evaluation studies, shows that rehabilitation programs reduce recidivism about 10 percentage points. Thus, if a control group had a recidivism rate of 55 percent, the treatment group's rate of re-offending would be 45 percent.

    A group of Canadian psychologists interested in crime—Don Andrews, James Bonta, and Paul Gendreau being its most prominent members—have taken the analysis of effective rehabilitation one step farther. They had two important insights. First, they believed that treatment should focus on changing those factors that are most strongly associated with or "predict" recidivism (e.g., antisocial values and peer associations, low self-control). Second, they hypothesized that rehabilitation programs that "worked" to reduce recidivism should share common features. Thus, it made sense to investigate what distinguished programs that decreased re-offending from those that did not.

    Based on meta-analyses of treatment studies, they found that in rehabilitation programs that conformed to the principles of effective intervention, recidivism was about 25 percentage points lower in the treatment as opposed to the control group (Andrews and Bonta; Cullen and Gendreau). These principles include: (1) target the known predictors of recidivism for change; (2) use cognitive-behavioral treatments that reinforce prosocial attitudes and behavior, seek to challenge and extinguish criminal thinking patterns, and provide alternative, prosocial ways of acting; (3) focus treatment interventions on high-risk offenders; (4) try to take into account characteristics of offenders (e.g., I.Q.) that might affect their responsivity to treatment; (5) employ staff that are well trained and interpersonally sensitive; and (6) provide offenders with aftercare once they leave the program (Gendreau).
    The big majority of Americans, who are comparatively well off, have developed an ability to have enclaves of people living in the greatest misery without almost noticing them.
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    Re: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    Yes, absolutely. You don't know this person's situation. You don't know what it's like to grow up where he grew up, you don't know what sort of options are available to someone like that. But you can go ahead and assume everything's just as easy as your upbringing, everything's all cut and dry; right and wrong, good and evil...while in Somalia, it may be more a matter of starvation and food.
    As far as the biopsychological perspective is concerned, I suggest you give the facts of brain development a more of an examination before you make a fool of yourself.
    Aww that poor widdle guy.... he grew up being raised by criminals its no wonder he is doing this...

    Got any ideas that don't cost 1 arm plus 1 leg to "rehabilitate" someone like that?

    What, are we going to reward criminals by giving them advantages others don't so that we can "rehabilitate" them? Are we going to give them taxpayer funded access to schools, psychological treatment, land them a taxpayer payed home outside of the projects to live in? Give them a job that other non criminals couldn't get?

    If we aren't going to do all this, then they will go back to their old lifestyle again.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  6. #56
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    Re: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Aww that poor widdle guy.... he grew up being raised by criminals its no wonder he is doing this...
    If you can, I would recommend you stop putting words into my mouth; it does not become you.

    As to whether he was raised by criminals, I don't know where you got this presumption. It's not so much a matter of upbringing as it is society; Somalia barely has a government, it's been wracked with civil war, there are no public schools, its economy is not industrialized (and only 2% of the land is arable), there are no telecommunications. The median age is 17, life expenctancy, 50, and literacy rates, 50%. Case in point, this isn't the kind of place you can just saunter on down Main Street, get a job and rent an apartment. It's a violent, dangerous (the most dangerous, in fact) country, and close to lawless. In a context such as this, piracy is damn near sensible. These conditions are difficult to comprehend, though, to the sheltered Westerner, and I do not expect comprehension.

    Got any ideas that don't cost 1 arm plus 1 leg to "rehabilitate" someone like that?
    The sort of effective rehabilitation of to which I refer and source are cheaper than re-incarceration. Recidivism is an expense; obviously, by lowering recidivism you're lowering costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    What, are we going to reward criminals by giving them advantages others don't so that we can "rehabilitate" them? Are we going to give them taxpayer funded access to schools, psychological treatment, land them a taxpayer payed home outside of the projects to live in? Give them a job that other non criminals couldn't get?

    If we aren't going to do all this, then they will go back to their old lifestyle again.
    You are absolutely wrong.

    First of all, rehabilitating criminals is not at all the same as rewarding. When you say things like that, you make my life much easier; I don't have to insult your intelligence, you do it for me. To answer the other questions, yes.

    Delancey Street Foundation - Home

    This is just one model; it works, and it works better than any of our largely punitive systems. And I'll reiterate this for you, this is all a lot cheaper than the punitive model, in which criminals are sent back to prison again and again, proving a near-constant drain on taxes and society.


    Duke
    The big majority of Americans, who are comparatively well off, have developed an ability to have enclaves of people living in the greatest misery without almost noticing them.
    -- Gunnar Myrdal


    The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
    -- Henry Kissinger


    Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no
    account be allowed to do the job.
    -- Douglas Adams

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    Re: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    If you can, I would recommend you stop putting words into my mouth; it does not become you.

    As to whether he was raised by criminals, I don't know where you got this presumption. It's not so much a matter of upbringing as it is society; Somalia barely has a government, it's been wracked with civil war, there are no public schools, its economy is not industrialized (and only 2% of the land is arable), there are no telecommunications. The median age is 17, life expenctancy, 50, and literacy rates, 50%. Case in point, this isn't the kind of place you can just saunter on down Main Street, get a job and rent an apartment. It's a violent, dangerous (the most dangerous, in fact) country, and close to lawless. In a context such as this, piracy is damn near sensible. These conditions are difficult to comprehend, though, to the sheltered Westerner, and I do not expect comprehension.



    The sort of effective rehabilitation of to which I refer and source are cheaper than re-incarceration. Recidivism is an expense; obviously, by lowering recidivism you're lowering costs.



    You are absolutely wrong.

    First of all, rehabilitating criminals is not at all the same as rewarding. When you say things like that, you make my life much easier; I don't have to insult your intelligence, you do it for me. To answer the other questions, yes.

    Delancey Street Foundation - Home

    This is just one model; it works, and it works better than any of our largely punitive systems. And I'll reiterate this for you, this is all a lot cheaper than the punitive model, in which criminals are sent back to prison again and again, proving a near-constant drain on taxes and society.


    Duke
    So, we shouldn't punish people for doing wrong things, we should "treat" them like they have some kind of disease?

    You are aware that most criminals CHOOSE to do the things they do right?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  8. #58
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    Re: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    So, we shouldn't punish people for doing wrong things, we should "treat" them like they have some kind of disease?

    You are aware that most criminals CHOOSE to do the things they do right?
    Of course I do. One of the central ideas of these programs is to teach them how to make the right choices in the future (thus slashing recidivism). Also, it gives offenders more choices in life, by giving them job skills, education, et cetera.


    Duke
    The big majority of Americans, who are comparatively well off, have developed an ability to have enclaves of people living in the greatest misery without almost noticing them.
    -- Gunnar Myrdal


    The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
    -- Henry Kissinger


    Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no
    account be allowed to do the job.
    -- Douglas Adams

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    Re: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke View Post
    Of course I do. One of the central ideas of these programs is to teach them how to make the right choices in the future (thus slashing recidivism). Also, it gives offenders more choices in life, by giving them job skills, education, et cetera.


    Duke
    While at the same time giving no harsh "punishment" for doing said action.

    If I knew that I could rob people at gunpoint and get assigned to some BS mind doctor dude who is going to try to "teach" me crap instead of losing my freedom. I'd keep robbing people.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  10. #60
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    Re: Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    While at the same time giving no harsh "punishment" for doing said action.

    If I knew that I could rob people at gunpoint and get assigned to some BS mind doctor dude who is going to try to "teach" me crap instead of losing my freedom. I'd keep robbing people.
    Nobody is saying that penalty wouldn't be part of the equation here, Caine. These rehabilitation programs of which I reference are not meant to replace prisons, or other elements of the justice system, but to supplement them. I begin to wonder whether you've actually read any of the links I've provided.

    Robbing someone at gunpoint is no less of a crime under a justice system using elements of restorative/rehabilitative programs. Deterrents certainly still exist, no less so than in other systems.

    Look, until you give my points and ideas a real hearing, and make the minimal effort necessary to know what the hell you're actually debating against here, I don't see any point in continuing this.


    Duke
    The big majority of Americans, who are comparatively well off, have developed an ability to have enclaves of people living in the greatest misery without almost noticing them.
    -- Gunnar Myrdal


    The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
    -- Henry Kissinger


    Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no
    account be allowed to do the job.
    -- Douglas Adams

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