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Somali teen pirate to stand trial as adult in US

Harshaw said:
That is incorrect.
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Lets see who is released first.

The "mentally abused by US actions" Somalian Pirate.
Or the "mentally abused by US actions" American Taliban.
 
Triad said:
Lets see who is released first.

The "mentally abused by US actions" Somalian Pirate.
Or the "mentally abused by US actions" American Taliban.
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Lindh was never charged with treason, and isn't eligible for any kind of release until 2019 -- which is more than three times longer than the minimum penalty for treason.
 
talloulou said:
I never understood that line of thinking. Either age matters or it doesn't. Either a 15 year old is a man or he is not. They can't legally be both. If we legally treat minors as children then we shouldn't arbitrarily treat them like men when it suits us IMO.
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I agree. My opinion is that 15 year olds should be treated as adults in all cases.
 
danarhea said:
Should have thrown him overboard while we were at it.
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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qR0Uke2XNI&feature=related"]YouTube - 300 - This is madness. This is Sparta.[/ame]
 
stevenb said:
Should I be charged and tried in Somalia? Or my home country?

I eagerly await your response. :roll:
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If the crimes happens in US, You should be tried there.
But it did not, the crimes in question occured near Africa.
Kenya or Somalia should be doing the charging not US.

Harshaw said:
Witch hunt?
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He went on there to negotiate and got shipped across the world?

Saying that, i never knew that. So lets just wait and see what happens in US on the courts. Do they even have proof that he was doing piracy when they arrested him?
 
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Korimyr the Rat said:
Fifteen or eighteen doesn't matter. He's a grown man and can face our legal system like one.
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How do you know he's a grown man? Have you met him? From whence does this certainty regarding the developmental mental state of a stranger come? Why do you conclude that he's not just a hapless boy who took one of the only options available to him in his society?

Duke
 
The idea that a 15 year old is a grown man is absurd. I can even think of my own mentality at age 15 vs. 18 or 19, and the difference is large. (As an aside, I also think that the difference between 19 and 23-24 is large as well). Developmentally you are not in the same place at all. I can think back on the mistakes I made as a 15 year old because I was too immature to understand.

Yes, a 15 year old, generally, knows right from wrong, but if you've been raised in international waters by ADULT pirates then your moral compass does not match that of U.S. laws or the laws of other countries. But this is the United States we're talking about... generally a criminal justice system based on punishment and not rehabilitation. I'm Canadian so my view on this is that the proceedings are barbaric for calling a 15 year old an adult.

He is young enough that he could be turned around. But no, let's put him in jail and toss away the key.
 
Orius said:
The idea that a 15 year old is a grown man is absurd. I can even think of my own mentality at age 15 vs. 18 or 19, and the difference is large. (As an aside, I also think that the difference between 19 and 23-24 is large as well). Developmentally you are not in the same place at all. I can think back on the mistakes I made as a 15 year old because I was too immature to understand.

Yes, a 15 year old, generally, knows right from wrong, but if you've been raised in international waters by ADULT pirates then your moral compass does not match that of U.S. laws or the laws of other countries. But this is the United States we're talking about... generally a criminal justice system based on punishment and not rehabilitation. I'm Canadian so my view on this is that the proceedings are barbaric for calling a 15 year old an adult.

He is young enough that he could be turned around. But no, let's put him in jail and toss away the key.
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Well put. To back this sentiment up with a scientific perspective, I bring facts about human brain development.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_lobe]Frontal lobe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The frontal lobe reaches full maturity around age 25, marking the cognitive maturity associated with adulthood. Arthur Toga, UCLA, found increased myelin in the frontal lobe white matter of young adults compared to that of teens.

The executive functions of the frontal lobes involve the ability to recognize future consequences resulting from current actions, to choose between good and bad actions (or better and best), override and suppress unacceptable social responses, and determine similarities and differences between things or events. Therefore, it is involved in higher mental functions.
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Psychologically, 15 year-olds are far from mature, and while they may appear to know "right vs. wrong," they are still very much undeveloped mentally. I think you'd have to be a pretty sick person to send someone away for the rest of their life because of a dumb mistake they made at 15.


Duke
 
Laila said:
That is just wrong.
US is probably just playing witch hunt with the only one left alive.

Besides, shouldn't a Somali pirate be tried in Africa at least?
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He is being tried, not because there is a witch hunt, but because there was reasonable suspicion to arrest him and put him on trial. The evidence?

1) In a boat with pirates who captured the captain.

2) Was negotiating for the captain's release.

Yup, I would say that this amounts to reasonable suspicion. If the jury decides on not guilty, after hearing the arguments and seeing the evidence, then he goes free. He would not get that kind of chance in his own neck of the woods. There, they would just take him out behind the court house and shoot him. He should be thankful it was Americans that arrested him.
 
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Duke said:
How do you know he's a grown man? Have you met him? From whence does this certainty regarding the developmental mental state of a stranger come? Why do you conclude that he's not just a hapless boy who took one of the only options available to him in his society?

Duke
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He's a pirate.

Hang him.

He was grown enough the wave the machine gun around, he's big enough to dangle and dance with a rope around his neck.
 
danarhea said:
He should be thankful it was Americans that arrested him.
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This is always the case, regardless who you are or what you have done.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
He's a pirate.

Hang him.

He was grown enough the wave the machine gun around, he's big enough to dangle and dance with a rope around his neck.
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This kind of ignorant, savage attitude is one of the primary flaws of the human race.


Duke
 
Duke said:
This kind of ignorant, savage attitude is one of the primary flaws of the human race.


Duke
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Being a pirate?

I agree.

Why's he still wasting oxygen? He was caught red-handed, didn't they have any rope on those ships?

Coddling criminals, that's a serious flaw in many.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Being a pirate?
I agree.
Why's he still wasting oxygen? He was caught red-handed, didn't they have any rope on those ships?
Coddling criminals, that's a serious flaw in many.
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Back in the day, the USN captain could/would have held the trial - and executed the sentence - immediately, on board his ship.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Being a pirate?

I agree.
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No, treating systems of justice as tools of barbaric retribution based on age-old "eye-for-an-eye" methods which have shown to do nobody any good.
Playing dumb doesn't become you, but it appears to be your sole option.

Why's he still wasting oxygen? He was caught red-handed, didn't they have any rope on those ships?

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Why's he still wasting oxygen? He was caught red-handed, didn't they have any rope on those ships?
Coddling criminals, that's a serious flaw in many.
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I agree. Coddling criminals is a waste of time. Time that could be spent better creating reasoned systems of justice based on restorative models and trying criminals in logical and comprehensive ways. Allowing the punishment to fit the crime wouldn't be a bad step, either.

Goobieman said:
Back in the day, the USN captain could/would have held the trial - and executed the sentence - immediately, on board his ship.
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I cannot understand the conservative's affinity for the bestial, primitive days. Anyone with half a brain knows they certainly weren't better.


Duke
 
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Duke said:
I cannot understand the conservative's affinity for the bestial, primitive days. Anyone with half a brain knows they certainly weren't better.
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And people without a brain think they were worse.
 
talloulou said:
He boarded one of our ships for negotiation and while he was on board "negotiating" we took the rest of his mates out. :shock: That seems wrong somehow.
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While he was negotiating one of his pirate buddies raised a gun to the captive's head and we took them out.

Please keep all the facts.
 
Goobieman said:
And people without a brain think they were worse.
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Oh yes, the "good old days," of random slayings, lynching, witch hunts, and justice based on, "He's guilty 'cuz I say so." Pretty much paradise, right? All of this so called "progress" is just movement away from those glory days...Or at least so conservatism has it. Much of the ideology is based on the concept that the world is consistently getting worse; that the further you go back in history, the more pure and wonderful everything was. Believing this ludicrous idea is the only way conservatives can sleep at night knowing that they're obstructing beneficial progress and improvement.


Duke
 
Goobieman said:
Back in the day, the USN captain could/would have held the trial - and executed the sentence - immediately, on board his ship.
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The unfortunate effect of that was that a lot of sailors got keelhauled for minor incidents.
 
Laila said:
If the crimes happens in US, You should be tried there.
But it did not, the crimes in question occured near Africa.
Kenya or Somalia should be doing the charging not US.



He went on there to negotiate and got shipped across the world?

Saying that, i never knew that. So lets just wait and see what happens in US on the courts. Do they even have proof that he was doing piracy when they arrested him?
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I beg to differ, we have a Kenyan president, so that gives us the power.
 
danarhea said:
The unfortunate effect of that was that a lot of sailors got keelhauled for minor incidents.
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What do you mean, "unfortunate"? That particular tradition is one of the many charming acts of brutality commonplace in the understandably revered "old days."


Duke
 
danarhea said:
The unfortunate effect of that was that a lot of sailors got keelhauled for minor incidents.
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Not so sure that keelhauling was all tha common, especially for minor incidents.
Stealing food, for example, usually resulted in lashes, or a trip through the gauntlet. You'd have to do something pretty serious for a keelhauling.
 
Duke said:
Oh yes, the "good old days," of random slayings...
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Oh, I'm sorry -- did you take exception to the 'if you dont agree with me, its because you're stupid' comment?

You can dish it out but can't take it?

Must be -- else you'd not have to respond with such melodrama.
 
talloulou said:
I never understood that line of thinking. Either age matters or it doesn't. Either a 15 year old is a man or he is not. They can't legally be both. If we legally treat minors as children then we shouldn't arbitrarily treat them like men when it suits us IMO.
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Im certain it has been said by now already, I wouldn't know, haven't read the whole thread. But...

if he is man enough to "lead" a group of pirates, even if he is 15, then he is man enough to be tried like a man.
 
celticlord said:
US Flagged vessel == US Territory == US has the right to give him a fair trial and a first-rate hanging.
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Unfortunately sir, due to liberal ******s we don't hang people anymore, its too "cruel".
 
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