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Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

Would you torture a person in order to save the lives of your family or countrymen? It's a terribly simply question.

Bull****. It was another absurd, 24-like scenario and I have no intention of jumping through such hoops.

What I would say is I would be willing to take the risk involved to my countrymen of not torturing suspects yes because I believe the honour and lack of precedent and state power is not worth it.

However if it really were a 24-like situation and the attacks were to be very big, then I might be able to turn a blind eye. But that is far from the case in the vast majority of situations.

I find it interesting you know say torture instead of just waterboarding. Are you willing to use even harsher methods to stop even a conventional terrorist attack?
 
By war, I am assuming you mean the defender, as the aggressor is obvious. No, for reasons that you and I would both agree on. Since we are chatting about philosophy, i'll quote one of my personal fave's, John Stuart Mill, as I believe he summed it up much nicer than I could.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."



That would be incorrect on two counts.

1. When Congress speaks, it is the representatives of the people, not the people themselves, that have spoken. If we do not like what they say, we overthrow the current governmental regime every few years in the form of elections.

2. The morality is not moot simply because the Congress, the White House, or even the majority of the citizenry endorse it. Morality is not a utilitarian issue, nor is it based upon the mere actions of a governmental body's decision.



Not true. Take Abu Graib or Guantanamo, for instance. Or the Japanese internment camps during WWII. War was certainly "the selected option" by Congress and our President, but would you say that these issues were 100% morally correct? I wouldn't, because many of the activities that went on there are morally suspect. The only real debatable thing in these examples was the necessity of doing them - not the issue of morality here (for example, it was morally wrong to imprison the Japanese American citizenry in internment camps during WWII, but was it necessary?)



That would be an incorrect assumption. Furthermore, i'd be interested to know where you came to such an off-base conclusion. Last I checked, we were discussing the morality of torturing enemy combatants, which I oppose because it is immoral. Can you show me where I said or even implied that I wanted to "hinder victory" and "want Bush to fail"?
We're at war, the so called torture is to obtain intelligence, which is a standard part of any war.
 
We're at war, the so called torture is to obtain intelligence, which is a standard part of any war.

Torture is illegal in this country.

The laws of this country do not depend on the upside down test, do "the ends justify the means"? :roll:
 
Torture is illegal in this country.

The laws of this country do not depend on the upside down test, do "the ends justify the means"? :roll:
Welfare is unconstitutional, I don't see you railing against that. Of course not, because it's part of the liberal agenda. Please spare us the feigned outrage.
 
Welfare is unconstitutional, I don't see you railing against that. Of course not, because it's part of the liberal agenda. Please spare us the feigned outrage.

Cut him some slack. If it weren't for the feigned outrage and banal blather he'd have nothing to say.
 
Fifty-eight percent (58%) believe the Obama administration’s recent release of CIA memos about the harsh interrogation methods used on terrorism suspects endangers the national security of the United States. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 28% believe the release of the memos helps America’s image abroad.
Rasmussen Reports: The Most Comprehensive Public Opinion Data Anywhere

:doh
 
Welfare is unconstitutional, I don't see you railing against that. Of course not, because it's part of the liberal agenda. Please spare us the feigned outrage.

Prove Welfare is unconstitutional.

No outrage here. Just trying to educate you.
 
Prove Welfare is unconstitutional.

No outrage here. Just trying to educate you.

Easy.
  • It's not one of the enumerated powers of Congress, Article I Section 8.
  • Amendment 10 reserves all powers not given Congress to the people and to the states.

As it is not in the Constitution, it is of necessity unconstitutional.

Thus you are educated.
 
Easy.
  • It's not one of the enumerated powers of Congress, Article I Section 8.
  • Amendment 10 reserves all powers not given Congress to the people and to the states.

As it is not in the Constitution, it is of necessity unconstitutional.

Thus you are educated.

Oi vey! :doh
There are many federal "laws" that are not "enumerated" in the constitution.

You fail... once again. :roll:

For your next trick are you going to show us how collecting federal income taxes from us is also unconstitutional? :mrgreen:
 
Would you torture a person in order to save the lives of your family or countrymen? It's a terribly simply question.

Absolutely not. Shame on you for asking.
 
Welfare is unconstitutional, I don't see you railing against that. Of course not, because it's part of the liberal agenda. Please spare us the feigned outrage.

You show me where in the constitution where it says that welfare is illegal and I'll start to take you seriously.
 
"Offend the weak"? So, if you are against torture, you are weak? This is good to know. :roll:

Don't forget, if you don't support the president or our wars then you are unpatriotic. I think we've seen this game before from them don't you?
 
You show me where in the constitution where it says that welfare is illegal and I'll start to take you seriously.
That's not how it works.

If the power to create something is not specifically granted by the constitution, then the power to create it does not exist.

If the government does someting that it hasnt been given the power to do, then whatever it is doing is unconstitutional.
 
That's not how it works.

If the power to create something is not specifically granted by the constitution, then the power to create it does not exist.

If the government does someting that it hasnt been given the power to do, then whatever it is doing is unconstitutional.

The Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Yeah, your final conclusion that welfare is unconstitutional is wrong.
 
It's sad that people still use a tragedy like 9/11 to justify their blind nationalism and extremist views on torture. I'm sure torture does yield results just as I'm sure killing a prisoner's entire family in front of them would yield results. Does that mean that we should do it? There has to be a line that we shouldn't cross and the fact that the line is now getting blurred in the name of nationalism should frighten everyone.
 
Indy;1058000863 said:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
You highlighted the wrong part.

This clause creates the power to tax; it doesnt create the power to create the welfare state. Taxes may be used to pay for various things, including the common defense and the general welfare, but this clause doesn't convey the power to do anything other than to tax.

The powers to provide for the common defense and the general welfare? They are found in the 17 clauses that follow this one.

So, my statement stands -- no power to create = unconstitutional.

Show me where the constitution it says the government shalll have the power to create the welfare state, and I'll start to take you seriously.
 
High value is a matter of opinion. Torture has specific uses, it is sometimes good for getting info on specific plans and only if you have other info to back it up and enough knowledgbe to trawl through the usual large amount of dubious info thrown in.

But whether it gives decent info is something very different to whether it should be used, whether it is worth the dishonour and the precedent.

Who cares what you, or anyone else THINKS might have happened? Who the F cares what anyone THINKS may have been useful or helpful?

The FACT remains that releasing this information, conducting witch hunts for purely political purposes do NOTHING to improve the political situation in the world or here in the US, it does NOTHING to make us safer and it does NOTHING to improve our status in the world.

It begs the question; why would ANYONE with a modicum of intelligence believe that this incredibly stupid effort is nothing more than ingrates with the intelligence of a salamander attempting to continue to impugn the previous administration for purely partisan political purposes?

What Obama and leading Democrats are doing is incredibly stupid and requires the intelligence of an ostrich. But alas, for those of us who didn't vote for these ingrates for the reasons we see now, how can we be surprised.

I am looking forward to the cretins infesting the Congress to submit subpoenas to prosecute the previous lawyers and Cabinet members of the Bush Administration and holding their trite little Kangaroo court which will accomplish absolutely NOTHING but delight those who wish us harm and are our enemies.

It begs the question; why do fellow Americans hate this country so much?

Oh gosh, silly me, it is now PATRIOTIC to conduct useless witch hunts of past administrations for purely partisan political gain!

:roll:
 
Who cares what you, or anyone else THINKS might have happened? Who the F cares what anyone THINKS may have been useful or helpful?

The FACT remains that releasing this information, conducting witch hunts for purely political purposes do NOTHING to improve the political situation in the world or here in the US, it does NOTHING to make us safer and it does NOTHING to improve our status in the world.

It begs the question; why would ANYONE with a modicum of intelligence believe that this incredibly stupid effort is nothing more than ingrates with the intelligence of a salamander attempting to continue to impugn the previous administration for purely partisan political purposes?

What Obama and leading Democrats are doing is incredibly stupid and requires the intelligence of an ostrich. But alas, for those of us who didn't vote for these ingrates for the reasons we see now, how can we be surprised.

I am looking forward to the cretins infesting the Congress to submit subpoenas to prosecute the previous lawyers and Cabinet members of the Bush Administration and holding their trite little Kangaroo court which will accomplish absolutely NOTHING but delight those who wish us harm and are our enemies.

It begs the question; why do fellow Americans hate this country so much?

Oh gosh, silly me, it is now PATRIOTIC to conduct useless witch hunts of past administrations for purely partisan political gain!

:roll:

So people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions if we feel that they have done wrong? Also, how exactly does giving subpoenas to lawyers equate to hating this country? Even if they are doing so for purely partisan reasons I fail to see how that constitutes as hating this country.
 
There has to be a line that we shouldn't cross and the fact that the line is now getting blurred in the name of nationalism should frighten everyone.
The US government should everything in its power to protect the rights of the people of the United States. If the only way the government can keep US cities from evaporating into a radiactive cloud is to torture someone, then by anny and all means, they should tortue them.

If you do not agree, then I do not want you in the US government.
 
It's sad that people still use a tragedy like 9/11 to justify their blind nationalism and extremist views on torture.

It is even more sad and pathetic that people still ignore the tragedy of 9-11 to promote their hate America agenda for purely partisan political gain.

I'm sure torture does yield results just as I'm sure killing a prisoner's entire family in front of them would yield results. Does that mean that we should do it?

Once again I am hardly surprised to see people who support terrorism asking the wrong question over and over again. The correct question is; "I wonder how many lives have been saved as a result of the efforts of our Government?"

We certainly should do it in the humane and thoughtful way the previous Administration went about it if it means we can save lives from these despicable cretins who show no compunction killing a small child or innocents in any brutal fashion they can devise; these thugs who claim that their goal is to kill even MORE in single attacks than done on 9-11; these despots who while sawing off the heads of their screaming victims video tape their egregious acts to show what despicable animals they are.

Yes whatever we do, lets NOT do what is necessary to ensure these thugs, despots, terrorists and murderers don't kill even more innocents.

There has to be a line that we shouldn't cross and the fact that the line is now getting blurred in the name of nationalism should frighten everyone.

There is nothing rational in your comments here; this isn't in the name of "nationalism," which is your weak attempt to suggest "Nazi like."

What we have here is a bunch of moronic Liberal politicians using this issue to further divide the nation and impugn America for purely partisan political purposes in the inane assumption that this will help them gain more power.

You should be MUCH more afraid of the current march of Government control over vast aspects of your lives and expand Governments role than what we did to despicable terrorists after careful thoughtful inflection on the legal ramifications of what methods would be humane yet achieve results.

Again, it begs the question; for what purpose are we attempting to impugn the previous administration for trying to protect us?

I can assure of this; our enemies, the people who hate us and the terrorists who want to kill even larger numbers of our citizens are outright laughing at us and gleeful that their efforts will now become easier rather than more difficult. No wonder they were so happy to see Obama win eh?

:roll:
 
The US government should everything in its power to protect the rights of the people of the United States. If the only way the government can keep US cities from evaporating into a radiactive cloud is to torture someone, then by anny and all means, they should tortue them.

If you do not agree, then I do not want you in the US government.

I really could care less what you want. I'm merely expressing my opinion. I think that there are lines that we shouldn't cross and it concerns me that there are so many people that are so willing to cross those lines in the name of "safety". This is exactly the type of blind nationalism that I'm talking about.
 
It is even more sad and pathetic that people still ignore the tragedy of 9-11 to promote their hate America agenda for purely partisan political gain.

What hate America agenda? Could you be more specific?

Once again I am hardly surprised to see people who support terrorism asking the wrong question over and over again. The correct question is; "I wonder how many lives have been saved as a result of the efforts of our Government?"

Who is supporting terrorism here? Are you seriously asserting that being against torture means that you are for terrorism?

We certainly should do it in the humane and thoughtful way the previous Administration went about it if it means we can save lives from these despicable cretins who show no compunction killing a small child or innocents in any brutal fashion they can devise; these thugs who claim that their goal is to kill even MORE in single attacks than done on 9-11; these despots who while sawing off the heads of their screaming victims video tape their egregious acts to show what despicable animals they are.

Fear can be used as a motivational tool to justify all sorts of things. Once we start crossing lines that we shouldn't be crossing it starts to concern me.
Yes whatever we do, lets NOT do what is necessary to ensure these thugs, despots, terrorists and murderers don't kill even more innocents.

So torture is the only way to ensure that these things don't happen? :roll:

There is nothing rational in your comments here; this isn't in the name of "nationalism," which is your weak attempt to suggest "Nazi like."

I didn't say Nazi-like. I said Nationalism. When someone is so blindly devoted to their country that they are willing to torture others I consider that Nationalism.

What we have here is a bunch of moronic Liberal politicians using this issue to further divide the nation and impugn America for purely partisan political purposes in the inane assumption that this will help them gain more power.

That may be, as I don't know what their own personal motivations are. While it may divide our country a bit, I don't think we should allow these things to continue. They shouldn't have happened int he first place.

You should be MUCH more afraid of the current march of Government control over vast aspects of your lives and expand Governments role than what we did to despicable terrorists after careful thoughtful inflection on the legal ramifications of what methods would be humane yet achieve results.

I'm concerned about that too.

Again, it begs the question; for what purpose are we attempting to impugn the previous administration for trying to protect us?

I think that people should be held accountable for their actions. I don't think that someone should be exempt from this just because of their previous position in the government or whatever.

I can assure of this; our enemies, the people who hate us and the terrorists who want to kill even larger numbers of our citizens are outright laughing at us and gleeful that their efforts will now become easier rather than more difficult. No wonder they were so happy to see Obama win eh?

:roll:

I really could care less how the terrorists view us.
 
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