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Thread: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    No offense, but by the look of your handle it doesn't appear you're Mr. V. so I'd rather not have you speaking for him

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    That's asinine. I assume then that you and your friends who have similar viewpoints as you have NEVER called somebody unamerican then? After all, how can someone be unamerican if America has no values which can be offended? Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you polled the people who agreed with your stance on torture you'd find quite a bit who throw around "traitor" "socialist" "unamerican" etc. all day long.
    You do realize that this is irrational to the point of incoherency.

    Principles may (or may not) have the quality of being "American". That is not at all the same thing as claiming (incorrectly) that the United States of America collectively hews to such principles. From a legal perspective, the government, having legal status as a person, may espouse principles of law to which the government will adhere. The President may (and arguably should) articulate principles of conduct that will inform the actions of members of his Administration. However, only individual people have the capacity to internalize specific moral principles and apply them in their daily life. Arguing to the contrary is merely foolishness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    This is of course assuming your post was logically sound and worth replying... which it was not.
    The witticisms of the left are on a par with their logic. How sad for you.

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
    This shows the kind of dishonesty your ilk are trying to pass off on the rest of us with regards to this torture issue. You ask the question like you already KNEW he had information. Truth is you didn't know jack. You fail to mention the VAST majority of the people you tortured were completely innocent. Oh sure, you get info from one or two guys but you've done evil to hundreds. I'm sure Jesus would be very proud of you.
    Don't know what Jesus would think of me. Have yet to speak to him; will make a point to ask should I run into him.

    As for dishonesty, that is balderdash. It is a very specifically drawn hypothetical addressing a very specific moral question. As such, it is itself complete and wholly self-contained.

    The dishonesty is the arbitrary introduction of other assumptions not part of the original situation then using them as supposed justification for sanctimonious condemnation of the original scenario.

    (It's also the logical fallacy of the straw man, but given the other flaws in your riposte, why quibble about mere logic?)

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post


    You're not folling anyone? You realise that.

    Bottomline in these cases none of the situations where anything like the live or death, ticking timebomb scenarios that keep being brought up. When you imply they are and then don't like being called on it, you aren't actually folling anyone.
    Would you torture a person in order to save the lives of your family or countrymen? It's a terribly simply question.

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    And that would still hold true. When you look at how some countries have treated captured prisoners waterboarding is incredibly light in comparison.

    It does no bodily harm for heavens sake.
    Actually, the McCain statement applies to waterboarding as well. It's difficult to gloss over the fact that waterboarding is torture, so McCain's statement applies perfectly. If you are willing to embrace torture as policy, at least recognize the American values - hell, the univeral values - that you are throwing away when doing so.

    Again, it's appalling to me that an uncomfortably large segment of the American population suppport this type of cruelty as an interrogation technique. It seems like we would all readily support taking the universal/absolute "moral high road" when it comes to policies like murder, rape, and torture, but apparently not.
    Last edited by Singularity; 04-22-09 at 08:14 PM.

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I am not making a value judgment on the efficacy of waterboarding, whether or not it is torture, or whether it should be used. Last year, we had a thread that lasted over 3 months and 1000+ post on this. There, my position was that waterboarding is inefficient, it is torture, and it should not be used. My position remains the same. And for the reason that I am citing, here. It is irrelevant as to whether waterboarding is worse or better, physically than sleep deprivation. It is torture and leads to lasting negative mental effects.
    Inefficient how?

    Sleep dev takes the better part of a week and the subject ends up loopy anyway.

    WB takes a couple of hours depending on the informant.

    Information can be checked out usually referencing persons,places, or things so you know pretty quick how accurate the information is.


    At the very least its time efficient.

    Waterboarding is both stressful and torturous. At least as stressful and torturous as watching the President, house, and senate pile up our taxpayer dollars and light them on fire in a ritualized sacrifice to service their banker masters.
    Thank you

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    If you are willing to embrace torture as policy, at least recognize the American values - hell, the universal values - that you are throwing away when doing so.
    Universal huh? If it were universal, wouldn't it have to be embraced by everybody? I can think of several places that would do worse to enemies of their state, so who is this group of universalists that decided something was morally correct or not?

    Besides, I get told all the time by leftists, that morality is subjective and there is no right or wrong morals. So now all the sudden, we are morally bankrupt, because we violated a non-existent set of universal morals? I am scratching my head.....
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    Very well I wish you to link the memos detailing the results of the techniques released by Obama.
    You have them right?

    You are not basing an opinion on what is or what is not on only half the information available are you?

    No way!... because you uphold the "principles" of the USA..like JUSTICE.


    You are not "We"..
    Obama is not "We"..
    Release the memos that showed the results and allow the American people to determine whether the actions taken in their minds was beyond the pale.


    Seems the Left has forgotten its own rhetoric..again.
    I believe that any such information should be released and believe that it will.

    However, that said, I don't need to see that information to know that torture is wrong. It is not a relative term to be justified, if even possible, by numbers.
    Is torture ok if it saves 1 life...if it saves 100 or 1000.
    No...its either wrong or it isn't. We as a country either engage in it or we are better than that...period.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Universal huh? If it were universal, wouldn't it have to be embraced by everybody? I can think of several places that would do worse to enemies of their state, so who is this group of universalists that decided something was morally correct or not?

    Besides, I get told all the time by leftists, that morality is subjective and there is no right or wrong morals. So now all the sudden, we are morally bankrupt, because we violated a non-existent set of universal morals? I am scratching my head.....
    Your leftist friends need to be corrected. There are moral issues that are not subjective and do, in fact, appear to be moral absolutes. For instance, it's impossible to imagine a society where murder or rape of the citizenry is commonplace and legal policy. No such society could exist, therefore the morality of murder and rape are universal tenets. However, there are those morality issues which are indeed subjective - homosexual marriage, for instance, or a woman's right to choose - so this gives creedence to the argument of moral subjectiveness. At least some degree of it.

    I am confused by what you mean by "we are morally bankrupt". I don't practice torture, nor do I endorse it. I certainly align myself against torture as policy, neither does a very large portion of our population, so there is no "we" about it. As for myself, i'm appalled at those in our country who endorse it, and I stand against those people. Those who do favor it as policy, however, must realize that what they are endorsing is a moral issue, one on which they reside on the lesser end.

    It seems like some folks who support torture are comfortable with that to some degree. After all, they argue, morals don't add up to a hill of beans if everyone is dead from terrorist attacks. That's a teleological argument, and I disagree with it. I don't think torture should become policy, nor should we as a nation practice it in any form. Torture is torture, and no matter how you slice it, it's morally reprehensible.
    Last edited by Singularity; 04-22-09 at 09:18 PM.

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Your leftist friends need to be corrected. There are moral issues that are not subjective and do, in fact, appear to be moral absolutes. For instance, it's impossible to imagine a society where murder or rape of the citizenry is commonplace and legal policy. No such society could exist, therefore the morality of murder and rape are universal tenets. However, there are those morality issues which are indeed subjective - homosexual marriage, for instance, or a woman's right to choose - so this gives creedence to the argument of moral subjectiveness. At least some degree of it.

    I am confused by what you mean by "we are morally bankrupt". I don't practice torture, nor do I endorse it. I certainly align myself against torture as policy, neither does a very large portion of our population, so there is no "we" about it. As for myself, i'm appalled at those in our country who endorse it, and I stand against those people. Those who do favor it as policy, however, must realize that what they are endorsing is a moral issue, one on which they reside on the lesser end.

    It seems like some folks who support torture are comfortable with that to some degree. After all, they argue, morals don't add up to a hill of beans if everyone is dead from terrorist attacks. That's a teleological argument, and I disagree with it. I don't think torture should become policy, nor should we as a nation practice it in any form. Torture is torture, and no matter how you slice it, it's morally reprehensible.
    Sure there are societies where murder and rape is acceptable. Hell Hitler had a powerful Empire going, and he was shoveling Jews into fireplaces. So to say that a society cannot exist, if it violates some kind of set of universal morals you argue exists, you would be wrong. They can exist, and they can become quite powerful.

    I personally don't have a problem with torturing enemy combatants. Its war. I personally feel that our society is spending too much time trying to turn our military and its system into some kind of civilian like court system. I think it weakens us on the battlefield. We are supposed to be fighting and winning wars and doing whatever it takes to be successful. If we are willing to subject our own men to these methods of torture, for training purposes, then there is no loss of morals to be willing to do it to enemy combatants who likely deserve it. In fact thats how I'd frame it. Whatever techniques we are willing to use on our troops, we should at least be allowed to use on the enemy. Unless you want to argue that we are taking the moral low ground, by training our troops in this manner too?

    I think a Commander in Chief needs to quit worrying about others perceptions, and just worry about taking care of his country, whatever the cost. Victory, by any means, is much more paletable to me, than losing for some intangible ideal. I am odly enough reminded of Woody Harrelson in White Men Can't Jump. Where he states "You'd rather look pretty and lose, than look ugly and win". Me, I embrace victory, and I see torture as a tool that we can use, when necessary, to ensure victory.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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