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Thread: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    To Disney, CC, and otheres. My question to you...

    What methods of interrogation should we do with prisoners we believe have information that is needed. What is the threshold you believe is the edge of the border that is "morally" okay for our country or that wouldn't harm them mentally"?
    Clearly, torture is anything that goes past asking nicely for the 2nd time.

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    "By any means possible" has never been the way America operates
    I suggest you refer to US history, specifically the period of 1941-1945.

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Torturing people IS wrong. Period. Should never be done.

    Extracting information from select individuals whom have, or or highly likely to have information to save lives through certain harsh measures such as water boarding is not wrong.
    Rationalizing much?

    Redefining terms?

    You do know, don't you, that we executed people in WW2 for torture right?
    What "Torture" you ask? Oh....well....ah.....Waterboarding
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  4. #74
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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Frankly, I'm split on the issue of torture.

    On the one hand, I do believe that torture diminishes our credibility globally as a humane society, and thus acts as a recruiting tool for terrorist groups whereby they can lure others to their radical cause. However, I also believe that you can't fight such an enemy who are willing to "die for the cause of Allah" by convential/civilized means.

    Did the "interrogation techniques" sanctioned by the Bush Administration act to gain more "actionable intelligence" and thus stop more terrorist acts against the U.S. and/or it's allies? Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll have to say yes. However, based on the memos, it took several interrogation attempts in order to obtain that intelligence. Some would say the ends justified the means. The angry side of me - the part that detests the actions of a rouge faction who would commit such an attrocious act as 9/11 on U.S. soil - would agree with those individuals who support torture. But the humane side of me wants nothing to do with torture and wants to believe that there are better ways to gain the same "actionable intelligence". Of course, we, as a nation, can't have it both ways. We can't be the peace keepers of the world taunting decency and humanitarinism while going about conducting torturous acts in secret whether on our soil or contracted abroad. In this, I can understand why our President would prefer to put an end to torture in this country. Still, it's a slipery slope either way you go.

    If torture is ended, our enemy could quickly and easily label the U.S. as weak and use this as a recruiting tool against us. If we continue to torture, they'd still us the inhumanity and hypocritical conduct as a recruiting tool against us. As the saying goes, "we can't win for losing." Nonetheless, I believe that the "olive branch of humanity" to end torture in this country will do more to strengthen relations with the Muslim world than it would to embolden our enemy. The idea here is to capture world-wide support for doing what's right rather than stooping to a lower level. Here's hoping acts of kindness wins out because in the grand scheme of things you can't speak of peace and human decency and expect the world to take you seriously in that regard unless you're actually practising same. IMO, the Bush Administration, for all the actionable intelligence the interrogation techniques yeilded, did more to bring down U.S. foreign relations than it did to build them up. Unfortunately, it would seem that for the sake of saving countless lives such torturous acts were deemed necessary for the greater good.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 04-22-09 at 05:45 PM.

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    There is no "1/2 Story"....torture is either right or its wrong. Its nothing more than a justification of your morals to say...well, its ok to use torture if it accomplishes this, but not if it accomplishes that.
    We as "America" are either better than that in our morals/ethics or we are similar to the very people we condemn.


    Very well I wish you to link the memos detailing the results of the techniques released by Obama.
    You have them right?

    You are not basing an opinion on what is or what is not on only half the information available are you?

    No way!... because you uphold the "principles" of the USA..like JUSTICE.


    You are not "We"..
    Obama is not "We"..
    Release the memos that showed the results and allow the American people to determine whether the actions taken in their minds was beyond the pale.


    Seems the Left has forgotten its own rhetoric..again.
    Last edited by Triad; 04-22-09 at 05:48 PM.

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Who decides?

    You are holding a man captive who knows about a pending terrorist attack in the town where your family lives: wife, sons, daughters. If you can learn what that attack is, your family will live. Fail to learn anything of what he knows and your family will die.

    Do you torture and/or waterboard? Or do you allow your wife and family to die?
    This shows the kind of dishonesty your ilk are trying to pass off on the rest of us with regards to this torture issue. You ask the question like you already KNEW he had information. Truth is you didn't know jack. You fail to mention the VAST majority of the people you tortured were completely innocent. Oh sure, you get info from one or two guys but you've done evil to hundreds. I'm sure Jesus would be very proud of you.
    Affiant further sayeth not.

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    All principles are personal. Countries do not have principles. Nations do not have principles. Only individuals can have principles.
    That's asinine. I assume then that you and your friends who have similar viewpoints as you have NEVER called somebody unamerican then? After all, how can someone be unamerican if America has no values which can be offended? Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you polled the people who agreed with your stance on torture you'd find quite a bit who throw around "traitor" "socialist" "unamerican" etc. all day long.

    This is of course assuming your post was logically sound and worth replying... which it was not.
    Affiant further sayeth not.

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    So you think the terrorists who want to kill us are gonna get post traumatic stress disorder from the waterboarding?
    And what do you say to the people who were water boarded and WEREN'T terrorists? Sorry? What if that person was your mother? Your father? We always LOVE talking to "liberals" (i.e. against torture) and asking them if they would torture if their loved one's were on the line, well would you still support it if your loved ones were some of the collateral damage of our intelligence gathering?
    Affiant further sayeth not.

  9. #79
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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    I see you like FDR.
    One has to wonder if you can read.

    My post was to show that Mr. V's stance is insane. It is inherently not my fault that you either cannot comprehend the written word or are deliberately ignoring context merely to attempt to ding me for your past argumentative failures. Either way, anyone reading your post and mine will know that what I said was in reply to Mr. V's insane argument and that I was only posting it to show that such a stance is not acceptable.

    Does this make FDR a Nazi?
    In some ways yes. While he did round up Japanese Americans which was wrong, he did not execute them like Hitler did. But make no mistake, and if you deliberately ignore this, I will highlight your dishonest, FDR acted terribly, immorally and against the ideals of this country when he ordered the interment of its own citizens for nothing other then genetics.

    That's why waterboarding worked.
    Except that it doesn't.

    The Captain that fired a round next the head of an Iraqi terrorists saved his troops lives; considered torture... proving it works.
    Explain to me how getting bad information "works."

    To categorically say people will say anything is pure BS.
    Torture works.
    Since when where you a torture expert? Last I checked, those who actually understand the subject (hint: not you on virtually everything) say otherwise.

    That is what professional analysts are for.
    You don't really believe this is done willy-nilly do you.
    And how do they make such judgements? How do we know that what people tortured say is actually legit when we know for a fact that people say anything to stop the pain?

    There might be times a simple interview won't work, and not fast enough; some means of torture, like waterboarding, shouldn't be taken off the table.
    I take it you haven't even bothered to read the report? Not surprising.

    It's not a torture all proposition, it is one tactic in a greater strategy.
    By such reasoning, all torture is not torture. Zyphlin summed this up quite nicely.

    I'll even quote him:

    "So for example...shoving bamboo shoots under peoples finger nails for the specific purpose to cause them pain and agony is torture. But shoving bamboo shoots under peoples finger nails because you have a reasonable belief that they have important information and you want them to give it to you is interrogation?"

    And now you oppose this?
    ROTFLMFAO
    You, Mr. Social Engineer finally found some government program you would be against expanding.
    Your lying is not appreciated.

    Pretty funny, as this is the typical leftist world view; National Security and Defense is to be shrunk... while government social engineering schemes are to be expanded.
    Too ****ing funny.
    It's pretty funny how you call this list the "Agenda of the Left"

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...wing-list.html

    Pretend all you want I'm a leftist, unless you want to call the GOP leftist. Which I'd actually be okay with.

    1. you think torture doesn't work.
    2. you give a blanket assessment that using it all the time will produce crap; perhaps, but torture would be used in specific situations.
    Incorrect. What I stated was that Mr. V's logic deduces that we should torture everyone as someone could have some information about some event in the future. That the mere possibility of information and an attack is grounds for mass torture. It would help if you actually read what people write for a change rather than assume whatever you want.

    3. you neglect to note that some information accompanied by torture can produce the intended result.
    Did I say that torture has given absolutely no good information?

    No. I didn't. You again are lying. One has to wonder if you are capable of replying without the use of lies.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Is that essentially what you're saying?
    Pretty much. Or more crudely, it's torture when they do it. It's intelligence gathering when we do it (never mind it's torture no matter what). Like how terrorists who favor our position are freedom fighters and terrorists who work against our positions are terrorists (never mind they are both terrorists regardless of their political desires.)
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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