Page 6 of 19 FirstFirst ... 4567816 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 184

Thread: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

  1. #51
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Tiamat's better half
    Last Seen
    10-28-11 @ 01:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    15,998

    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    I'd be willing to bet if you kept a guy awake for 4 days he'd beg to be waterboarded if he was promised uninterrupted sleep after it was over.

  2. #52
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Tiamat's better half
    Last Seen
    10-28-11 @ 01:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    15,998

    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Plus too even with tons of loud noises I imagine a very tired body is just gonna collapse and sleep despite whatever noises. So I'd be willing to bet there's some physicality involved to keeping prisoners awake. Either they're squirting them with hoses or going in and handling them awake or something.

    I could actually understand more hysteria about the sleep deprivation vs the waterboarding. Maybe it's cause I'm a woman and we love and need our sleep.

    And if Captn is worried about mental anguish or PTSD I would think the longer process of sleep deprivation would carry with it more mental memory and lasting haunting images.

  3. #53
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,781

    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Yeah but you're a captured prisoner. Captured by another country. You're going to have mental effects from that anyway.

    Plus again the waterboarding is over in short set period of time. It's like a burst of feeling uncomfortable. Horrible but over relatively quick.

    What the hell are they doing to keep the prisoners awake for days? I imagine it's lots of taunting, loud noises, yelling, and god knows what and that goes on for an extended period of time -NONSTOP so they can't sleep. The mental effects of that have to be just as long if not longer than the waterboarding and it arguably causes actual physical damage to the bodily system.
    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I'd be willing to bet if you kept a guy awake for 4 days he'd beg to be waterboarded if he was promised uninterrupted sleep after it was over.
    I am not making a value judgment on the efficacy of waterboarding, whether or not it is torture, or whether it should be used. Last year, we had a thread that lasted over 3 months and 1000+ post on this. There, my position was that waterboarding is inefficient, it is torture, and it should not be used. My position remains the same. And for the reason that I am citing, here. It is irrelevant as to whether waterboarding is worse or better, physically than sleep deprivation. It is torture and leads to lasting negative mental effects.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #54
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,781

    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Plus too even with tons of loud noises I imagine a very tired body is just gonna collapse and sleep despite whatever noises. So I'd be willing to bet there's some physicality involved to keeping prisoners awake. Either they're squirting them with hoses or going in and handling them awake or something.

    I could actually understand more hysteria about the sleep deprivation vs the waterboarding. Maybe it's cause I'm a woman and we love and need our sleep.

    And if Captn is worried about mental anguish or PTSD I would think the longer process of sleep deprivation would carry with more mental memory and lasting haunting images.
    I am opposed to both. Both cause lasting mental issues. Torture is inefficient.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  5. #55
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Tiamat's better half
    Last Seen
    10-28-11 @ 01:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    15,998

    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I am not making a value judgment on the efficacy of waterboarding, whether or not it is torture, or whether it should be used. Last year, we had a thread that lasted over 3 months and 1000+ post on this. There, my position was that waterboarding is inefficient, it is torture, and it should not be used. My position remains the same. And for the reason that I am citing, here. It is irrelevant as to whether waterboarding is worse or better, physically than sleep deprivation. It is torture and leads to lasting negative mental effects.
    But still don't you think it's interesting that everyone is deeply concerned about the water and nobody says much about the sleep deprivation. If we're considering waterboarding torture then sleep deprivation is also torture and has the same if not far more capacity to cause long lasting mental effects. Would you rather remember some guy pouring water over your head and feeling like you were gonna drown for 10 minutes or remember a variety of guys keeping you awake for days on end. I'm sure keeping them awake involves a hell of a lot more than just, "Hey you - wake up." I bet it would be harder to watch someone being kept awake for days and all the stuff they endured throughout the process then watching a waterboarding tape.

    Meh, maybe it's just me.

  6. #56
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,781

    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    But still don't you think it's interesting that everyone is deeply concerned about the water and nobody says much about the sleep deprivation. If we're considering waterboarding torture then sleep deprivation is also torture and has the same if not far more capacity to cause long lasting mental effects. Would you rather remember some guy pouring water over your head and feeling like you were gonna drown for 10 minutes or remember a variety of guys keeping you awake for days on end. I'm sure keeping them awake involves a hell of a lot more than just, "Hey you - wake up." I bet it would be harder to watch someone being kept awake for days and all the stuff they endured throughout the process then watching a waterboarding tape.

    Meh, maybe it's just me.
    I think I've been clear about this. I would be concerned about both. Waterboarding is in the headlines, so it is getting the airplay. Both are a problem, to me.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #57
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Tiamat's better half
    Last Seen
    10-28-11 @ 01:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    15,998

    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I think I've been clear about this. I would be concerned about both. Waterboarding is in the headlines, so it is getting the airplay. Both are a problem, to me.
    Well I don't want to derail this thread but I do find it curious so I started a poll.

    And yeah the waterboarding is the headline but the memos also discussed the sleep deprivation and so did Obama. It's just the general public that seems less interested in that and I find that interesting.

  8. #58
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,781

    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Well I don't want to derail this thread but I do find it curious so I started a poll.
    I saw you creating it. I waited. I responded.

    And yeah the waterboarding is the headline but the memos also discussed the sleep deprivation and so did Obama. It's just the general public that seems less interested in that and I find that interesting.
    Waterboarding has been a media catchphrase for a few years, so it is more ingrained in the public's mind when they think about torture of terrorists. Sleep deprivation has been far less presented by the media. The average citizen, generally ignorant of anything that they are not spoonfed by the media, has latched onto waterboarding because that's what the media dictated.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #59
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Tiamat's better half
    Last Seen
    10-28-11 @ 01:41 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    15,998

    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I saw you creating it. I waited. I responded.



    Waterboarding has been a media catchphrase for a few years, so it is more ingrained in the public's mind when they think about torture of terrorists. Sleep deprivation has been far less presented by the media. The average citizen, generally ignorant of anything that they are not spoonfed by the media, has latched onto waterboarding because that's what the media dictated.
    I dislike the media being so involved. I don't think Obama should have released the memos, although he is right - we did know about the waterboarding anyway.

    I guess what I find most curious is that nobody seems to have an answer as to what methods of interrogation would be better. Personally I think if Obama says we're never gonna sleep deprive or waterboard someone again what will happen is it will all just go more underground. I don't think the CIA is gonna just agree, "Gosh darn we can't do anything but ask them questions and then just deal with it if they don't want to talk." That's why I think it's impractical to consider things like sleep deprivation and waterboarding torture. I think it will ultimately lead to more CIA interrogated people ending up dead and off the radar so they're never able to tell anyone how exactly they were interrogated.

    I think the sleep deprivation is pretty bad. I think the waterboarding is sort of ingenious in that it's a way to make someone horribly uncomfortable without actually physically hurting them.

    But the CIA? Come on. They are not going to stop interrogating folks who are captured and if you take EVERYTHING off the table they are just going to become even more secretive and less transparent then they already are and they are going to leave less evidence.

    That's what I think. I really view it as one of those, "Be careful what you ask for, " things.

  10. #60
    Global Moderator
    I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

    CaptainCourtesy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 07:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    152,781

    Re: Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    I dislike the media being so involved. I don't think Obama should have released the memos, although he is right - we did know about the waterboarding anyway.
    I don't like the media being so involved, either. And I have mixed feelings on Obama releasing the memos. On the one side I think it was purely political. On the other, I think the public should know some of the things our intelligence community is doing. On the third side (yes, there are three sides to this ) there are some things that should be left secure and the public should not know for security reasons.

    I guess what I find most curious is that nobody seems to have an answer as to what methods of interrogation would be better. Personally I think if Obama says we're never gonna sleep deprive or waterboard someone again what will happen is it will all just go more underground. I don't think the CIA is gonna just agree, "Gosh darn we can't do anything but ask them questions and then just deal with it if they don't want to talk." That's why I think it's impractical to consider things like sleep deprivation and waterboarding torture. I think it will ultimately lead to more CIA interrogated people ending up dead and off the radar so they're never able to tell anyone how exactly they were interrogated.
    Truthfully, I don't find this a convincing argument. Don't call it torture so the CIA won't do something more clandestine? It is torture. I have no idea how the CIA works and do not know whether these things being classified as torture will actually change a thing.

    As far as what works? I think it depends on the individual. I remember reading about some of the folks involved in the plot to assassinate Hitler captured by the Nazis. They were tortured to garner information. Some gave information; some did not. Torture is unreliable. It's success is dependent on the individual.

    I think the sleep deprivation is pretty bad. I think the waterboarding is sort of ingenious in that it's a way to make someone horribly uncomfortable without actually physically hurting them.
    Mentally, both are torturous. Kinda like listening to country music.

    But the CIA? Come on. They are not going to stop interrogating folks who are captured and if you take EVERYTHING off the table they are just going to become even more secretive and less transparent then they already are and they are going to leave less evidence.

    That's what I think. I really view it as one of those, "Be careful what you ask for, " things.
    I would agree. But I think it would happen anyway.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

Page 6 of 19 FirstFirst ... 4567816 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •