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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

So, a person won't lie during a conventional interrogation?

Won't? Can't say that. but one of the reasons they study things like this is to see what is most likely, most effective. Because torture encourages them to say something, we will likely get misinformation. Now, we can point to al Libi giving us misinformation that we used in Powell's report to the UN. He was tortured, and he lied. This is specific, and verifiable. Can you point to something as speicifc and verifiable that shows we got good intel?

Now, other methods lead to a situation that is more likely to be honest. We can assess better and their motivation different. Studies have shown other methods to be far more effective.

It is not a case of all or nothing. This type of thinking hurt the Bush administration a lot. but when you factor in the law and ethics with the likihood of getting misinformation, torture becomes a clear loser. trying to creae a situaiton that doesn't really exist in the real world, the ticking time bomb nonsesne, doens't make torture any more effective, legal or moral.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

cia's ig report, released by eric holder on the monday preceding aug 29:

ksm "cooperated to an extraordinary extent" only "after his spirit was broken" by eit's in the month after his capture

he became langley's "preeminent source," conducting "terrorist tutorials," cluing intel in to aq's "key operatives and strategic doctrines"

a network of 70 names was gathered, arrests were made, detainees were "leveraged and cross referenced" using intel provided to extract more

"waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the most powerful techniques" and "elicited a lot of information"

it is what it is, per cia's ig, as released by eric holder

credit goes to barack the slasher obama for NOT dismantling the anti terror tactics initiated by his predecessor, thus allowing our agents and seals to get ubl
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

cia's ig report, released by eric holder on the monday preceding aug 29:

ksm "cooperated to an extraordinary extent" only "after his spirit was broken" by eit's in the month after his capture

he became langley's "preeminent source," conducting "terrorist tutorials," cluing intel in to aq's "key operatives and strategic doctrines"

a network of 70 names was gathered, arrests were made, detainees were "leveraged and cross referenced" using intel provided to extract more

"waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the most powerful techniques" and "elicited a lot of information"

it is what it is, per cia's ig, as released by eric holder

credit goes to barack the slasher obama for NOT dismantling the anti terror tactics initiated by his predecessor, thus allowing our agents and seals to get ubl

While all this serves as a giant "Duh!" to anyone supporting EITs and whatnot, I'm uncomfortable with how willing we are to share the techniques that have worked.

I'm more uncomfortable with how we're so willing to describe how our operation worked the day we killed him.

And still even more uncomfortable how we're willing to describe the intel we got in the process.

Don't give them the playbook. Please tell me we're hiding a lot more than we're telling.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

While all this serves as a giant "Duh!" to anyone supporting EITs and whatnot, I'm uncomfortable with how willing we are to share the techniques that have worked.

I'm more uncomfortable with how we're so willing to describe how our operation worked the day we killed him.

And still even more uncomfortable how we're willing to describe the intel we got in the process.

Don't give them the playbook. Please tell me we're hiding a lot more than we're telling.

By working, you mean like the misinformation of al Libi's we used pre Iraq invasion?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

no, silly

working, according to the cia's ig as released by holder, means turning ksm from "an avowed and truculent enemy" into langley's "preeminent source"

i thought you said you could think
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

no, silly

working, according to the cia's ig as released by holder, means turning ksm from "an avowed and truculent enemy" into langley's "preeminent source"

i thought you said you could think

And you do realize you can't point to a single thing that we can verify as evidence. I know you're willing to accept the word of anyone as long as it backs what you want, but it is not equal to verifiable evidence. Saying he gave information is not the same as showing he gave valuable evidence.

However, we have clear and verifiable evidence of misinformation we got from al Libi. he gave false information and we used in Powell's report to the UN.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I know you're willing to accept the word of anyone as long as it backs what you want

the cia's ig?

HOLDER accepted it

otherwise doj wouldn't have published the report on the monday before aug 29

think

LOL!
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Well, you don't really know what anyone accepted. You don't ask for much in the way of evidence. Again, I provided a known, verifiable example. Can you produce one eual to that?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

the dozen links (wapo, abc, reuters, ap...) have been posted

but since they're not from new south wales, one can't expect certain people to understand
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

the dozen links (wapo, abc, reuters, ap...) have been posted

but since they're not from new south wales, one can't expect certain people to understand

For CLAIMS. Not verifiable evidence. There's a difference.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Well, there were three waterboarded. Two of them have already had information released that confirms there was valuable intel obtained. The third one, we only have the word of top US officials that it yielded valuable information.

CT notwithstanding, the answer to your question is ZERO.

Is that going to make any difference to your entrenched position? No.

So here is a case of waterboarding where in people screamed every name they could and in how many years it proved fruitful? And you want to say there are ZERO people waterboarded who didn't give real information? Seriously? We've waterboarded more than 3 people, BTW. We got valid data from all of that? No? We didn't you say? You were completely making up statistics on the spot to try to make your case seem stronger you say? Thought so.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

So here is a case of waterboarding where in people screamed every name they could and in how many years it proved fruitful? And you want to say there are ZERO people waterboarded who didn't give real information? Seriously? We've waterboarded more than 3 people, BTW. We got valid data from all of that? No? We didn't you say? You were completely making up statistics on the spot to try to make your case seem stronger you say? Thought so.

Absolutes are often problematic. It is more to accurate to say we likely got more misinformation than accurate information. The literature is clear that torture is less effective at getting information than other techniques. And we can point to where we used misinformation (al Libi before the UN), but don't really have a comparable example to present concerning actual information we recieve from torture. I would think if we got anything comparable, it would have been presented as evidence. I am concerned about claims without verifiable evidence to confirm the claim.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I am concerned about claims without verifiable evidence to confirm the claim.

LOL!

ask the ig, he's the one making the claims

while you're at it, ask HOLDER why his doj issued the report

more seriously, thanks are due to president slasher for NOT dismantling his predecessor's policies---gitmo, detention, wiretapping---thus allowing our agents and seals to assassinate ubl
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Page not found.

I guess the story turned out to be b.s.

Could just be that the story was older than dirt. This thread is about 2 years old.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Could just be that the story was older than dirt. This thread is about 2 years old.

it is older than dirt, but proved to be false. We actually tharted that plot before we even captured KSM.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

from the ig report published by doj:

Mohammed described plans to strike targets in Saudi Arabia, East Asia and the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks, including using a network of Pakistanis "to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and the Brooklyn bridge in New York." Cross-referencing material from different detainees, and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the CIA and FBI went on to round up operatives both in the United States and abroad.

"Detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of whom we had never heard of before -- that al-Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations," according to the CIA summary.

Mohammed was an unparalleled source in deciphering al-Qaeda's strategic doctrine, key operatives and likely targets, the summary said.

How a Detainee Became An Asset - washingtonpost.com

"preeminent source," anyone?

credit belongs to president obama for not dismantling the anti terror tactics he inherited, despite his best efforts to strip em---gitmo, detention, the patriot act---thus allowing our agents and seals to assassinate the target

USA!
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

We've all seen that. However, as I keep telling you, no specfics are mentioned. In fact, when Cheney tried to give an example, it proved to be not even possible.

But from your article:

During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.

So, we have no evidenc eof much other than him confessing to everything. I think he even confessed to killing the Easter Bunny. Torture is good at getting confessions. The one example V+Cheney gave proved false. So, why do you accetp the claim?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

So, why do you accetp (sic) the claim?

ask the ag, aristotle
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

We've all seen that. However, as I keep telling you, no specfics are mentioned. In fact, when Cheney tried to give an example, it proved to be not even possible.

But from your article:

During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.

So, we have no evidenc eof much other than him confessing to everything. I think he even confessed to killing the Easter Bunny. Torture is good at getting confessions. The one example V+Cheney gave proved false. So, why do you accetp the claim?

I repeat.

:2wave:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

no specfics are mentioned

you expect specifics?

from langley?

LOL!

After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials." In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture. Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."

These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques. "KSM, an accomplished resistor, provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard, and analysis of that information revealed that much of it was outdated, inaccurate or incomplete," according to newly unclassified portions of a 2004 report by the CIA's then-inspector general released Monday by the Justice Department. The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.

One former U.S. official with detailed knowledge of how the interrogations were carried out said Mohammed, like several other detainees, seemed to have decided that it was okay to stop resisting after he had endured a certain amount of pressure. "Once the harsher techniques were used on [detainees], they could be viewed as having done their duty to Islam or their cause, and their religious principles would ask no more of them," said the former official, who requested anonymity because the events are still classified. "After that point, they became compliant. Obviously, there was also an interest in being able to later say, 'I was tortured into cooperating.'" Mohammed described plans to strike targets in Saudi Arabia, East Asia and the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks, including using a network of Pakistanis "to target gas stations, railroad tracks, and the Brooklyn bridge in New York." Cross-referencing material from different detainees, and leveraging information from one to extract more detail from another, the CIA and FBI went on to round up operatives both in the United States and abroad. "Detainees in mid-2003 helped us build a list of 70 individuals -- many of who we had never heard of before -- that al-Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations," according to the CIA summary.

link above

credit belongs to president obama for not, despite his best efforts, dismantling the anti terror methods of his predecessor, making this assassination possible
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Actually he did. We don't troture any more. And you have not addressed anything I've presented. :2wave:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

the only thing i ever saw you present were links to whitehouse.gov, comedy central and sydney, australia

LOL!

"preeminent source"

"after his spirit was broken"

them's the words made public by eric holder's doj, dudes

credit goes to president obama for being too weak domestically to realize his attempts to close gitmo, end rendition and detention and the patriot act...

all of which, including eit's, made this ASSASSINATION possible
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

:lamo :lamo :2wave:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

going back to detroit, eh, chairman?

take sydney

meanwhile, inspector general, cia, as issued by eric holder's doj on the monday preceding aug 29, 2009:

ksm transformed, reversed, from being an avowed and truculent enemy of the us to a preeminent source who cooperated to an extraordinary extent, providing names, targets, methodologies, allowing our heroic intel agents (whom this administration wants to prosecute) to roundup and arrest dozens of operatives, many of whom langley had never heard of before, leveraging info from one to access another and cross referencing data with what others (including zebaydah, libi and ghul, all of whom were eit'd) were saying, leading us to the courier kuwaiti (after a wiretapping) and allowing us to assassinate ubl

just the facts, maam

have a nice trip
 
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