CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:

How about if you link to an interrogator who stands behind the claim that torture yields useful data? I haven't seen that.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/us/politics/23detain.html?hp

Even President Obama’s new director of national intelligence, Dennis C. Blair, wrote in a memorandum to his staff last week that “high value information came from interrogations in which these methods were used,”....

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I'd say that's a trustworthy source that the information gathered has been of "high value" given the fact that it's Obama's guy that's the source.

At best, an honest person can only say that the reviews of waterboarding's efficacy are mixed.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/us/politics/23detain.html?hp




I'd say that's a trustworthy source that the information gathered has been of "high value" given the fact that it's Obama's guy that's the source.

At best, an honest person can only say that the reviews of waterboarding's efficacy are mixed.

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Are you doing the "lets make will disapear" trick? :rofl

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

Are you doing the "lets make will disapear" trick? :rofl

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I'm of the belief that this whole debate on waterboarding needs to undergo a paradigm shift. From what I can tell, yes, it has yielded some high value information. What I'd love to know is the rate of valuable information it yields in comparison to non-torture techniques.

An independent comprehensive study, devoid of emotionality and politics, is necessary to determine first it's efficacy, and then it's efficacy in comparison to more standard interrogation techniques. Then we need to determine the "value" of the data gleaned form each method.

Until we know these comparative data, there is no way to argue for or against it in any substantial way.

Let's say that all other techniques yield a higher rate of actionable intel, but most of it is very minor in nature. Now let's say that waterboarding yields a much smaller rate of actionable intel, but the stuff it does yield is hugely important. Then we could have a serious debate on the value of waterboarding.

Conversely, if the rates are the same, and the value is the same, we would have to conclude that waterboarding is extraneous and totally unnecessary.

Finally if the rates are lower for waterboarding and the value is at best equal, then we could say that it is detrimental to gathering valuable intel.


Right now, no one can say any of these scenarios are the correct one because there has yet to be such an independent, unemotional, apolitical study performed.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:

I'm of the belief that this whole debate on waterboarding needs to undergo a paradigm shift. From what I can tell, yes, it has yielded some high value information. What I'd love to know is the rate of valuable information it yields in comparison to non-torture techniques.

An independent comprehensive study, devoid of emotionality and politics, is necessary to determine first it's efficacy, and then it's efficacy in comparison to more standard interrogation techniques. Then we need to determine the "value" of the data gleaned form each method.

Until we know these comparative data, there is no way to argue for or against it in any substantial way.

Let's say that all other techniques yield a higher rate of actionable intel, but most of it is very minor in nature. Now let's say that waterboarding yields a much smaller rate of actionable intel, but the stuff it does yield is hugely important. Then we could have a serious debate on the value of waterboarding.

Conversely, if the rates are the same, and the value is the same, we would have to conclude that waterboarding is extraneous and totally unnecessary.

Finally if the rates are lower for waterboarding and the value is at best equal, then we could say that it is detrimental to gathering valuable intel.


Right now, no one can say any of these scenarios are the correct one because there has yet to be such an independent, unemotional, apolitical study performed.

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do you think we would waterboard if it did not work? I think there is much we do not know.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

do you think we would waterboard if it did not work?

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I think the government does a lot of **** that doesn't work. It's a given that there is a possibility waterboarding is not effective simply because the government is doing it.

I think there is much we do not know.

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True, which is why I think a study is necessary. I don't really need to know the details so long as I know that it is effective.

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Tucker Case said:

I think the government does a lot of **** that doesn't work. It's a given that there is a possibility waterboarding is not effective simply because the government is doing it.

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:lol: you didn't have to say all that, you could have just typed... "DMV"

True, which is why I think a study is necessary. I don't really need to know the details so long as I know that it is effective.

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I agree, I also agree that if they are going to release some of this information as Obama has, they need to release it all.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

One of the problems facing those who are trying to evaluate this issue, regardless of their perspective, is the contradictory nature of many of the written reports. The highly redacted nature of many of the key reports lends further confusion. For example, Steven G. Bradbury then the Justice Department's principal deputy assistant attorney general, wrote in a May 30, 2005 memo, one of four released last week by the Obama administration,

"It is difficult to quantify with confidence and precision the effectiveness of the program."

This memo has been quoted rather extensively by those opposed to the enhanced interrogation treatment. Those that do so conveniently ignore the fact that Bradbury concluded in his May 2005 memos that the program had been effective.

Partisan politics also plays its accustomed role in the debate. According to Politico's web site, Nancy Pelosi is pushing back hard against against charges that she was aware of -- and acquiesced in -- the CIA's harsh interrogations of terrorist detainees nearly from the moment the practice began.

Unfortunately for Pelosi, the Washington Post reported in 2007, that, "For more than an hour," "the bipartisan group [which included Pelosi] . . . was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

"Among the techniques described," the story continued, "was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder."

Combine incomplete information with partisanship and a potentially emotional issue and you have a subject ripe for (sometimes vitriolic) debate!

FWIW, as a survivor of both WTC bombings (I worked on the 96th Floor of 2 WTC in Feb '93 and the 43rd floor in Sep '01), I view these so-called enhanced interrogation techniques - if they are as described and implemented as described - not as torture but as legitimate techniques to gather information that could potentially save lives.

These techniques focus on psychological impact; no blood is shed; no body parts are removed or even threatened (e.g., no decapitations); families are not threatened; innocents are not knowingly and deliberately targeted; the interrogations are documented and strictly supervised according to strict guidelines. The principal physical effects appear to be from sleep deprivation and general exhaustion. Debilitating but hardly life-threatening.

The psychological impact is clearly illustrated by KSM. According to George Tenet, writing in his book, "At the Center of the Storm,"

"I believe none of these successes [in foiling terrorist plots] would have happened if we had had to treat KSM like a white-collar criminal -- read him his Miranda rights and get him a lawyer who surely would have insisted his client simply shut up. In his initial interrogation by CIA officers, KSM was defiant. 'I'll talk to you guys,' he said, 'after I get to New York and see my lawyer.' Apparently he thought he would be immediately shipped to the United States and indicted in the Southern District of New York. Had that happened, I am confident that we would have obtained none of the information he had in his head about imminent threats to the American people."

Imagine KSM's shock when he didn't get to visit the scene of his crimes.

Thats just my opinion. Others having different life experiences may, understandably, differ.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:

I'm of the belief that this whole debate on waterboarding needs to undergo a paradigm shift. From what I can tell, yes, it has yielded some high value information. What I'd love to know is the rate of valuable information it yields in comparison to non-torture techniques.

An independent comprehensive study, devoid of emotionality and politics, is necessary to determine first it's efficacy, and then it's efficacy in comparison to more standard interrogation techniques. Then we need to determine the "value" of the data gleaned form each method.

Until we know these comparative data, there is no way to argue for or against it in any substantial way.

Let's say that all other techniques yield a higher rate of actionable intel, but most of it is very minor in nature. Now let's say that waterboarding yields a much smaller rate of actionable intel, but the stuff it does yield is hugely important. Then we could have a serious debate on the value of waterboarding.

Conversely, if the rates are the same, and the value is the same, we would have to conclude that waterboarding is extraneous and totally unnecessary.

Finally if the rates are lower for waterboarding and the value is at best equal, then we could say that it is detrimental to gathering valuable intel.


Right now, no one can say any of these scenarios are the correct one because there has yet to be such an independent, unemotional, apolitical study performed.

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If I need to find out which little brother did what, I have to trick them into telling me. If you get all mad they all lock up and don't tell you anything. Although when wrestling you can get them to say things they don't really want to say. Like "uncle". Or "I am a big baby that wants my ankle twisted more". And guess what.... They say it.
But then again my lil' bros aren't hardened Jihadists.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:

I have no idea if it ever existed in reality. I've never been faced with it myself, but there's a lot of **** I've never been faced with.

All I know is that if the hypothetical were real, and I were facing it, I'd use torture. I cannot in good faith denounce others for using what I myself would use if they are faced with such a situation in reality.

And neither one of us can offer anything but conjecture regarding the actual existence or nonexistence of such scenarios nor can we offer anything substantial regarding how the terrorists would respond to being tortured in such a scenario.

Like I said, I'm undecided on it. I'd need actual evidence one way or the other to support or denounce the practice.

If you could somehow make an actual argument based on more than your questioning of the scenario's likelihood, perhaps I could be swayed. But if all you can put forth is the fact that you question it, or cannot see the situation where it would work, I will obviously remain undecided. What you can or cannot see as plausible has no bearing whatsoever on my decision-making. The fact that it works for you is all well and good, but it isn't exactly a persuasive argument.

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What you seem to be saying Tucker is, that in a moment of desperation you would turn to desperate measures without the confidence that those measures would work. It's a bit like belief in god. Are you going to pray right before you torture someone just so you cover your bases?

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

P/N said:

Funny, I never considered you, WillRockwell, the "centrist", a thinker.

You're handpicking your quotes. Funny, I seem to recall other "centrists" jumping all over Bush for handpicking intelligence. So what do you have to say about those "conductors of torture techniques" who claim that it does and has yielded useful information? Could they be right and the ones you cling to be wrong? Nah, anything that contradicts your emotions has to be a lie, right? :roll:

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I haven't heard of any "conductors of torture techniques" who claim that it does and has yielded useful information. Perhaps you could quote some of them.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/us/politics/23detain.html?hp




I'd say that's a trustworthy source that the information gathered has been of "high value" given the fact that it's Obama's guy that's the source.

At best, an honest person can only say that the reviews of waterboarding's efficacy are mixed.

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One person who wrote in a memorandum to his staff last week that “high value information came from interrogations in which these methods were used,”....
What are "these methods"? Are they more than just waterboarding? This doesn't say, WATERBOARDING PRODUCED HIGH VALUE INFORMATION. The FACT that no one will come out and say that specifically should give you pause.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:

One person who wrote in a memorandum to his staff last week that “high value information came from interrogations in which these methods were used,”....
What are "these methods"? Are they more than just waterboarding? This doesn't say, WATERBOARDING PRODUCED HIGH VALUE INFORMATION. The FACT that no one will come out and say that specifically should give you pause.

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You seem to misunderstand, Slippery. Unlike most people, I'm actually undecided either way (read: giving pause).

Do you have conclusive evidence to suggest that it was not waterboarding that he was referring to? If so, please present it. I would love to see it.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:

What you seem to be saying Tucker is, that in a moment of desperation you would turn to desperate measures without the confidence that those measures would work. It's a bit like belief in god. Are you going to pray right before you torture someone just so you cover your bases?

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No. It's nothing like religion. That drum should be beaten elsewhere.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:

You seem to misunderstand, Slippery. Unlike most people, I'm actually undecided either way (read: giving pause).

Do you have conclusive evidence to suggest that it was not waterboarding that he was referring to? If so, please present it. I would love to see it.

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I would say that the lack of specifics is enough evidence. If you don't come right out and say what people are asking, there's probably a reason.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:

No. It's nothing like religion. That drum should be beaten elsewhere.

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Yes it is, it's faith of a sort. You have no evidence that it works yet you're willing to give it a try, just in case. Like prayer.

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Slippery Slope said:

I would say that the lack of specifics is enough evidence. If you don't come right out and say what people are asking, there's probably a reason.

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But the reason my not be what you are assuming it is.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:

Yes it is, it's faith of a sort. You have no evidence that it works yet you're willing to give it a try, just in case. Like prayer.

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Not really. Asking nicely is most definitely not going to work in the scenario I described. That would be akin to praying. Doing something you know won't work, but doing it anyway because you HOPE it'll work.

Whereas cutting off a testicle and shoving it down his throat... Well, there is more of a chance that the simple threat of doing that might yield more results than asking nicely would.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:

Not really. Asking nicely is most definitely not going to work in the scenario I described. That would be akin to praying. Doing something you know won't work, but doing it anyway because you HOPE it'll work.

Whereas cutting off a testicle and shoving it down his throat... Well, there is more of a chance that the simple threat of doing that might yield more results than asking nicely would.

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Apparently the vast majority of intelligence agents disagree with that.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Tucker Case said:

But the reason my not be what you are assuming it is.

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Or it may be exactly what I think it is. What I think it is, is more plausible than some other undisclosed reason.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:

What you seem to be saying Tucker is, that in a moment of desperation you would turn to desperate measures without the confidence that those measures would work. It's a bit like belief in god. Are you going to pray right before you torture someone just so you cover your bases?

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bad analogy

Once you die there is no do over. You face either god, the devil, oblivion or whatever.

If the intel is bad you just ask again. Who what where when type questions for the most part are easily verified. Thats all you really need. You ask the same questions over and over to develop a record of answer changes.

It isnt cool to just complain without offering an alternative solution.
KSM was laughing at US "interregation" backrubs and gourmet coffee until the waterboard came out and then generated actionable intel.
Are you upset because it succeeded or that the CIA were willing to take the PR hit at all?

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

akyron said:

KSM was laughing at US "interregation" backrubs and gourmet coffee until the waterboard came out and then generated actionable intel.

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The politicians who say that are the same ones who say KSM provided intelligence that foiled a plot on the Liberty Tower in 2002, even though KSM wasn't even captured until 2003. Not saying they're lying, just saying they could be.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Binary_Digit said:

The politicians who say that are the same ones who say KSM provided intelligence that foiled a plot on the Liberty Tower in 2002, even though KSM wasn't even captured until 2003. Not saying they're lying, just saying they could be.

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Its justice department memos recently declassified. What politicians are you talking about?


Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack

The Library Tower attack Planning allegedly began as early as October 2001.

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akyron said:

Its justice department memos recently declassified. What politicians are you talking about?

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Team Bush. I admit I'm biased and could be wrong, but he's cried wolf too many times for me to take anything that administration says at face value.

akyron said:

The Library Tower attack Planning allegedly began as early as October 2001.

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Right, and the plot was derailed in early 2002 according to Bush:

President Bush Speaks on Terrorism

Yet KSM was not captured until March 2003:

CNN.com - Officials: Alleged al Qaeda paymaster in custody - Mar. 4, 2003

So if what Bush says is true, there's no way KSM could have provided any intelligence to help disrupt the London Tower plot. Contrary to the assertions of the CIA in that article.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Binary_Digit said:

Team Bush. I admit I'm biased and could be wrong, but he's cried wolf too many times for me to take anything that administration says at face value.


Right, and the plot was derailed in early 2002 according to Bush:

President Bush Speaks on Terrorism

Yet KSM was not captured until March 2003:

CNN.com - Officials: Alleged al Qaeda paymaster in custody - Mar. 4, 2003

So if what Bush says is true, there's no way KSM could have provided any intelligence to help disrupt the London Tower plot. Contrary to the assertions of the CIA in that article.

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Objectively I have no idea why you are dragging "Team Bush" into clear cut declassified memos. Are you saying once a target has been cleared it wont ever be attacked or targeted again? If it was targeted in 2001 it was never going to be attacked again? That really does not sound accurate.

Cried wolf?

Terrorist Attacks
(within the United States or against Americans abroad)


Didnt happen eh?

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

SouthernDemocrat said:

Am I the only one that sees the irony in many of those that scream fascism, tyranny, and socialism with every bailout, environmental protection, or social safety-net, are also some of the biggest defenders of government sanctioned torture, denial of habeas corpus, and warrantless wiretaps?

You don't trust the government to bail out a bank, but you trust them with torture? You don't trust the government to administer say, unemployment extensions, but you trust them with selectively denying habeas corpus?

You guys that defend this crap are the very enablers of tyranny and you don't even know it.

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This has to be the most overlooked post in the entire thread. QFT.