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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Obviously it makes people "talk". But, expert after expert agree that anything resulted from torture is not dependable. One of Bush's excuses to invade Iraq was info gotten from one man from torture. And it was found to be wrong. Just like every single one of all his BS reasons to invade a country that didn't do anything to us.

LOL... no torture doesn't work; nothing is perfect, but coercion has proven itself to work. It has already saved lives... yet folks simply close their ears and eyes and claim otherwise.

In a related vein, I was in a former Commi country where theft is the national sport... well, one of the foremen used some coercive methods to find out who was involved stealing valuable property... and it worked. With hardened criminals and nut-jobs it may take a little or a lot more coercion... but they do provide information... and if you have some already... you can leverage it to get more. It works... isolation, fear, uncomfortable circumstances... the choice between uncomfortable circumstances and comfortable circumstances...

Bush gave countless reasons to go into Iraq... and the press crapped on him for it.

CRG: Dr David Kay's Testimony to the Senate Armed Services Committee
Quote:
All I can say is if you read the total body of intelligence in the last 12 to 15 years that flowed on Iraq, I quite frankly think it would be hard to come to a conclusion other than Iraq was a gathering, serious threat to the world with regard to WMD.

Kay: ...after 1998 it became a regime that was totally corrupt. Individuals were out for their own protection. And in a world where we know others are seeking WMD, the likelihood at some point in the future of a seller and a buyer meeting up would have made that a far more dangerous country than even we anticipated with what may turn out not to be a fully accurate estimate.

In other words... we might have been lucky.

.
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Obviously it makes people "talk". But, expert after expert agree that anything resulted from torture is not dependable. One of Bush's excuses to invade Iraq was info gotten from one man from torture. And it was found to be wrong. Just like every single one of all his BS reasons to invade a country that didn't do anything to us.

I wonder how much info the UAE prince got by, shoveing sand in his captives mouth, eyes, nose ( I`m sure the lungs got a little), followed by a bare assed whipping with a nail in a board, then running over the guy ,several times, with an SUV ( I thought that part fell short of torture since the guy was laying in soft sand). I think the Prince was related to the guy he was tortureing, so maybe none of the above falls under the parameters of,"what is torture". Anyway my point is... "YES...YES, I did it, I`m sure I did it, please stop the torture.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

In a related vein, I was in a former Commi country where theft is the national sport... well, one of the foremen used some coercive methods to find out who was involved stealing valuable property... and it worked. With hardened criminals and nut-jobs it may take a little or a lot more coercion... but they do provide information... and if you have some already... you can leverage it to get more. It works... isolation, fear, uncomfortable circumstances... the choice between uncomfortable circumstances and comfortable circumstances...

.

Yeah in in that Commi country that you admire so much for torturing people, those torture sessions NEVER got false confessions did they?:roll:

But then that would get facts in the way of your dream of torturing people.

If torturing can elicit FALSE confessions, then torture doesn't work all the time either.
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

All these "no torture" people talk talk talk, but it's easy to say you don't support "evil torture".

Put them on the spot, say.. family members held hostage somewhere with a deadline, and give them one bad guy with the info to save their families...

They'd be waterboarding, knee capping and breaking fingers too.


It's all PC posturing, they HAVE to be against torture, because they cannot imagine inflicting pain on anyone. They believe all you have to do is reason with the bad guys and they'll come around and do the right thing. It's a weakness those inclined to be highly emotional tend to have.

But that's from the safety of their computers. Put them on the spot, and watch them change their tunes. (Unless they really are willing to let people die just to avoid hurting someone... which is really scary)
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

All these "no torture" people talk talk talk, but it's easy to say you don't support "evil torture".

Put them on the spot, say.. family members held hostage somewhere with a deadline, and give them one bad guy with the info to save their families...

They'd be waterboarding, knee capping and breaking fingers too.


It's all PC posturing, they HAVE to be against torture, because they cannot imagine inflicting pain on anyone. They believe all you have to do is reason with the bad guys and they'll come around and do the right thing. It's a weakness those inclined to be highly emotional tend to have.

But that's from the safety of their computers. Put them on the spot, and watch them change their tunes. (Unless they really are willing to let people die just to avoid hurting someone... which is really scary)

you are posing a scenario from the movies and television which, to my knowledge, has never occured, and are using it as a general justification for torture. If a 24 type ticking time bomb situation really existed, don't you think a terrorist could hold out till the bomb went off? And that's the best justification you have.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

All these "no torture" people talk talk talk, but it's easy to say you don't support "evil torture".

Put them on the spot, say.. family members held hostage somewhere with a deadline, and give them one bad guy with the info to save their families...

They'd be waterboarding, knee capping and breaking fingers too.


It's all PC posturing, they HAVE to be against torture, because they cannot imagine inflicting pain on anyone. They believe all you have to do is reason with the bad guys and they'll come around and do the right thing. It's a weakness those inclined to be highly emotional tend to have.

But that's from the safety of their computers. Put them on the spot, and watch them change their tunes. (Unless they really are willing to let people die just to avoid hurting someone... which is really scary)

LOL :applaud

You are spot on. IMO, it boils down to individual moral justification.

We can napalm an entire village, but we can't slap a guy in the head with a shoe.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

you are posing a scenario from the movies and television which, to my knowledge, has never occured, and are using it as a general justification for torture. If a 24 type ticking time bomb situation really existed, don't you think a terrorist could hold out till the bomb went off? And that's the best justification you have.




So if we had the one of the hijackers before 911. There would be no use in trying to extract information by any means neccesary?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Yeah in in that Commi country that you admire so much for torturing people, those torture sessions NEVER got false confessions did they?:roll:
I'm not saying you will get perfect results... but you will get results that are useful. To say otherwise is pure BS.
But then that would get facts in the way of your dream of torturing people.
Nice try.
We don't dream about torturing, and in fact it would be great if we could all live in peace without militarism, police or secretive agencies, but this is not Alice in Wonderland.

To save lives, this coercive option should never be taken off the table; it has psychological effects even when not used... The "subject of interest" just might fear coercion and cough up the goodies...
...and...
... what makes you think non-coercive methods provide perfect and abundant intel?

The Fairy Godmother?

If torturing can elicit FALSE confessions, then torture doesn't work all the time either.
I agree, but it doesn't mean it should be removed as a possible technique as we never know what ills will face us...
...and...
Obama releasing our techniques is the definition of "Bad Judgment", and "Incompetence".

We seem far weaker today than on Sept. 10, 2001.

.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

So if we had the one of the hijackers before 911. There would be no use in trying to extract information by any means neccesary?

Well one, its rather illogical to try to make a choice AFTER the fact. Hindsight is 20/20, etc. For example AFTER THE FACT we would know this man was a hijacker of 9/11 and therefore definitly had knowledge and therefore definitely know we could potentially prevent the attack that we know would cost 3000 lives and untold damage.

We wouldn't know that BEFORE hand.

But taking a similar scenario. We aren't currently at war with anyone. We hear a lot of chatter about a potential attack. We're find a guy we think may know information.

For me...

I'd say if we were about 95% or more sure he had significant actionable intelligence on something massive and was not a citizen I would not have much issue with doing what was needed to get the information.

If we were 80% sure he had significant actionable intelligence on something large and was not a citizen I would have little issue with things such as waterboarding or some of the other more "extreme" interrogation techniques we've used.

If its under that 80% threshold, or if he's a citizen who has not had a fair trial, or if its the info he is believe to have isn't significant enough to likely help, then anything beyond what we normally do in regards to criminal interrogations.

I'd rather have a higher chance to die due to a terrorist attack happening on our soil once every 5-10 years than have the United States become a country contrary to its founding beliefs, philosophies, and documents in the name of safety.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

All these "no torture" people talk talk talk, but it's easy to say you don't support "evil torture".

Put them on the spot, say.. family members held hostage somewhere with a deadline, and give them one bad guy with the info to save their families...

They'd be waterboarding, knee capping and breaking fingers too.


It's all PC posturing, they HAVE to be against torture, because they cannot imagine inflicting pain on anyone. They believe all you have to do is reason with the bad guys and they'll come around and do the right thing. It's a weakness those inclined to be highly emotional tend to have.

But that's from the safety of their computers. Put them on the spot, and watch them change their tunes. (Unless they really are willing to let people die just to avoid hurting someone... which is really scary)

Since we're going improbable scenario, would you torture your own daughter to save the lives of other people? Let's say we have an equally improbable scenario as you posed here. Somehow, it can either be your daughter is in on it, or you're being held captive by some bad guys; whatever...it's all equally unlikely. But it comes down to the only way you can find out information on a bomb hidden in a building occupied by even hundreds of people is to torture your own daughter. Would you do it?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Fortunantly eh? If there is another terrorist attack, killing hundreds, you can rest well knowing they died because no one was... tortured.
This is a hilarious statement. Watch this:

Fortunantly eh? If there is another terrorist attack, killing hundreds, you can rest well knowing they died because no one was... eating macaroni.

See? If you do not have to back up your asinine statements, neither do I.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

you are posing a scenario from the movies and television which, to my knowledge, has never occured, and are using it as a general justification for torture. If a 24 type ticking time bomb situation really existed, don't you think a terrorist could hold out till the bomb went off? And that's the best justification you have.

It would be nice if you actually went beyond your DailyKOS rantings and actually educated yourself on the facts.

Here are some of the leads/arrests/prosecutions of the people whose identities were brought to light from enhanced interrogation techniques.

KSM told American officials about Iyman Faris. The 37-year-old Kashmir native became an American citizen in December 1999, CNN reports. He worked as a truck driver and moonlighted for al Qaeda. He procured some 2,000 sleeping bags for use in al Qaeda’s training camps while visiting Pakistan and Afghanistan in 2000-2001. He delivered cash, cell phones, and plane tickets to al Qaeda contacts. On the home front, Faris conspired to sabotage a train in Washington, D.C., inspected the Brooklyn Bridge for vulnerabilities, and began seeking acetylene torches to sever the span’s suspension cables and plunge it 119 feet into New York’s East River.

On May 1, 2003, Faris pleaded guilty to providing material support to al Qaeda and conspiring to do so. He currently is serving a 20-year jail sentence for these crimes.

“By providing everything from initial leads to photo identifications to precise locations of where terrorists were hiding,” President Bush observed September 6, “this program has helped us to take potential mass murderers off the streets before they were able to kill.”


Terrorist Rogues’ Gallery by Deroy Murdock on National Review Online
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

This is a hilarious statement. Watch this:

Fortunantly eh? If there is another terrorist attack, killing hundreds, you can rest well knowing they died because no one was... eating macaroni.

See? If you do not have to back up your asinine statements, neither do I.

Ah yes, pure genius in the rationale dept.

Let's take a trip back down memory lane.

"Connect the dots".
How does one?
Where does the vital info come from.

From thin air?

It's not to say every case or even a faction of a fraction of a percent may require it, but the tools should be there to extract info.

For the rest of you who don't like it... you can eat macaroni... but don't come crying to us about "Connecting the dots" or any further BS when we are unsuccessful in stopping a future attack... because somebody wasn't allowed to use methods that Cinderella wouldn't approve of.

A little like Gorellick putting up a firewall between the intel agencies... sounded so nice then... protecting the terrorists... but look what their "we are nice people" policies wrought.

You folks are an odd bunch... you find it OK when AIG execs are targeted by the President and his cronies... and fear for their lives and family. That's OK, but making suspects that could have info vital to our security and it's "no, no, no... we are not that kind of people".

.
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ah yes, pure genius in the rationale dept.

Let's take a trip back down memory lane.

"Connect the dots".
How does one?
Where does the vital info come from.

From thin air?

It's not to say every case or even a faction of a fraction of a percent may require it, but the tools should be there to extract info.

For the rest of you who don't like it... you can eat macaroni... but don't come crying to us about "Connecting the dots" or any further BS when we are unsuccessful in stopping a future attack... because somebody wasn't allowed to use methods that Cinderella wouldn't approve of.

A little like Gorellick putting up a firewall between the intel agencies... sounded so nice then... protecting the terrorists... but look what their "we are nice people" policies wrought.

You folks are an odd bunch... you find it OK when AIG execs are targeted by the President and his cronies... and fear for their lives and family. That's OK, but making suspects that could have info vital to our security and it's "no, no, no... we are not that kind of people".

.
Like always, you miss the point and then proceed to post a comical diatribe. Vicchio said:

"Fortunantly eh? If there is another terrorist attack, killing hundreds, you can rest well knowing they died because no one was... tortured."

This implies that every terrorist attack could be avoided by torturing people. Anyone with half of a brain knows that that is a ridiculous statement.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

It would be nice if you actually went beyond your DailyKOS rantings and actually educated yourself on the facts.

Here are some of the leads/arrests/prosecutions of the people whose identities were brought to light from enhanced interrogation techniques.

KSM told American officials about Iyman Faris. The 37-year-old Kashmir native became an American citizen in December 1999, CNN reports. He worked as a truck driver and moonlighted for al Qaeda. He procured some 2,000 sleeping bags for use in al Qaeda’s training camps while visiting Pakistan and Afghanistan in 2000-2001. He delivered cash, cell phones, and plane tickets to al Qaeda contacts. On the home front, Faris conspired to sabotage a train in Washington, D.C., inspected the Brooklyn Bridge for vulnerabilities, and began seeking acetylene torches to sever the span’s suspension cables and plunge it 119 feet into New York’s East River.

On May 1, 2003, Faris pleaded guilty to providing material support to al Qaeda and conspiring to do so. He currently is serving a 20-year jail sentence for these crimes.

“By providing everything from initial leads to photo identifications to precise locations of where terrorists were hiding,” President Bush observed September 6, “this program has helped us to take potential mass murderers off the streets before they were able to kill.”


Terrorist Rogues’ Gallery by Deroy Murdock on National Review Online


Oh you mean this Iyman Faris, the one who was hired by the FBI after KSM fingered him? Some threat, considering he was actually employed as a double agent:

On March 19 2003, Faris was visited by two FBI agents and an anti-terror officer, who confronted him with testimony from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and the results of an intercepted telephone call. Faris was reportedly friendly and accommodating, and agreed to let the agents search his apartment the following day.[5]

He was then granted a deal to work as a double agent, reporting to the FBI.

BTW, the idea of cutting through the cables of the
Brooklyn Bridge is in the Top Ten of DumbAss terrorist plot ideas, along with blowing up JFK airport by setting fire to fuel lines, and overrunning an army base by posing as pizza delivery men. If this is the best information we got from torturing detainees, it wasn't worth it.
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Fortunantly eh? If there is another terrorist attack, killing hundreds, you can rest well knowing they died because no one was... tortured.
So you're saying that if we'd been torturing people before 9/11, it could have been prevented?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Yet actual participants keep saying that torture isn't necessary.
Under traditional interrogation methods, he [Abu Zubaydah] provided us with important actionable intelligence.
[...]
There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified.

Ali Soufan was an F.B.I. supervisory special agent from 1997 to 2005.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=2&ref=global

Mr. Soufan questions the statements and timelines of 'harsh technique approval' from the memos.
Defenders of these techniques have claimed that they got Abu Zubaydah to give up information leading to the capture of Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a top aide to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and Mr. Padilla. This is false. The information that led to Mr. Shibh’s capture came primarily from a different terrorist operative who was interviewed using traditional methods. As for Mr. Padilla, the dates just don’t add up: the harsh techniques were approved in the memo of August 2002, Mr. Padilla had been arrested that May.

Speaking of timelines.

The article cited in the OP states that Khalid Sheik Mohammed gave up information about a planned attack on Los Angeles because of the use of 'enhanced techniques'.

A press release by the White House in May of 2007 states...
In 2002, we broke up a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast. During a hearing at Guantanamo Bay two months ago, KSM stated that the intended target was the Library Tower in Los Angeles.

Fact Sheet: Keeping America Safe From Attack

The White House says they broke up a planned west coast attack in 2002, but Khalid Sheikh Mohammed wasn't captured until March 1, 2003.

If it wasn't KSM, who provided the information concerning the 2002 west coast planned attack the WH speaks of?

Was it because of 'enhanced techniques' or regular tactics?

I can't find any information that ties Zubaydah or Nashiri (the other two that are mentioned, along with KSM, to being approved to use 'enhanced techniques' on ) to giving up anything concerning a west coast attack.

So, how did the WH foil this west coast plot without the use of 'enhanced techniques'?




WillRockwell said:
BTW, the idea of cutting through the cables of the
Brooklyn Bridge is in the Top Ten of DumbAss terrorist plot ideas, along with blowing up JFK airport by setting fire to fuel lines, and overrunning an army base by posing as pizza delivery men. If this is the best information we got from torturing detainees, it wasn't worth it.
Yeah, I got a chuckle out of that too...:lol:
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I'm skeptical that something that causes NO bodily harm or physical damage falls under the guidelines of torture. I think there's lots of unwarranted hysteria.
Something that does no bodily harm? You can die from waterboarding. :confused: Quite easily in fact.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Really? When exactly did the US government outlaw waterboarding?
When we became a signatory of the Geneva Conventions and then prosecuted people for waterboarding as a war crime.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Did anybody bring up that we waterboard many of our own soldiers as part of training them to deal with interrogation?

Buddies of mine have told me of being waterboarded in advanced training in the service. They said it was virtually impossible not to comply with whatever was being asked of them, but that it did them no lasting harm.

If we do it to our own soldiers to toughen them up and prepare them for the worst, I have no problem with doing it to known terrorists if we reasonably believe doing so may prevent an attack.

There's apparently a world of difference between waterboarding, and traditional "torture" such as splinting the fingernails, cutting off body parts, etc.

G.
Excuse me, I was in the Marines and my son is currently in the Marines. We do not train our military in the use of waterboarding nor do we "prepare" our military to survive capture by waterboarding them.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

You don't live in the real world do you?

You'd rather have people killed, DEAD...

And you cannot name a single RIGHT lost during the Bush years... you actually made me sick
Yes I would rather see Americans die for the ideals that we stand for. You don't seem to mind it either as long as the Americans are in the military. I think every American should be willing to sacrifice their life to preserve what makes us American.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I'm not advocating the random and generalized "torture" of "suspected" terrorists. I'm advocating the exclusive "torture" of known terrorists who are thought to have information concerning an impending terrorist attack on the US. If their being "tortured" yielded nothing in the way of substantive information I wouldn't be inclined to apologize. Instead, I would most likely say, "See you in hell, terrorist scum-sucker. It's been a pleasure torturing you."
you actually made me sick.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Nothing is a 100% guarantee; but it continues to BEG the question, the alternative is to do what? Nothing?

I am always amused how people can conveniently forget our mindsets right after the 9-11 attacks. But I am stunned how they can pretend that it never occurred or will never be repeated perhaps with even more devastation.

Denial can do that to people. :cool:
Fallacious argument. Who said said do nothing? Plenty of field agents from our intel agencies say that there are far better ways to get intel and better intel.

I am always amused how people can conveniently use 9/11 to promote their authoritarian, barbaric and fear mongering ideals. But I am stunned how they can pretend that sacrificing our morals will stop a terrorist from performing an act of terrorism. One thing we know 100% is that it is indeed a sacrifice of our morals. Fear mongering won't prevent an attack either.
 
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