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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Still with the emotional tripe huh. Maybe you can tell me how Iraq was a threat factually to the United States. No? You can't? You'll just make another emotionalized and insulting statement after this? K.

CNN.com - Russia 'warned U.S. about Saddam' - Jun 18, 2004

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian intelligence services warned Washington several times that Saddam Hussein's regime planned terrorist attacks against the United States, President Vladimir Putin has said

Russia Warned U.S. About Iraq, Putin Says (washingtonpost.com)

Russian President Vladimir Putin said yesterday that his intelligence service had warned the Bush administration before the U.S. invasion of Iraq that Saddam Hussein's government was planning attacks against U.S. targets both inside and outside the country.
BBC NEWS | Americas | Putin says Iraq planned US attack

Russian President Vladimir Putin says that after the 9/11 attacks Moscow warned Washington that Saddam Hussein was planning attacks on the US.

It seems Iraq was a direct threat to the US.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Still with the emotional tripe huh. Maybe you can tell me how Iraq was a threat factually to the United States. No? You can't? You'll just make another emotionalized and insulting statement after this? K.

Why do you keep parsing this false argument: "tell me how Iraq was a threat factually to the United States"

If you were INFORMED and had read the Joint Resolution to go into Iraq, you wouldn't make such factually inept statements.

Here it is, please read it and become informed and while you are at it, note that out of approximately 1,850 words, a mere 200 refer to WMDs.

S. J. Res 45 Auhorizing Use of Armed Forces Against Iraq

That stated, it once again suggests that Saddam Hussein posed no risk to US citizens; that requires willful denial or willful ignorance.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Still parsing the same old false arguments and Liberal talking points eh?

What is false about asking about the supposed WMD's ?

Here's the joint resolution, read it and become informed.

It contains more than 1,850 words of which a mere 200 plus are devoted to WMDs.

S. J. Res 45 Auhorizing Use of Armed Forces Against Iraq

Great wonderful let the world deal with it. In the mean time invading Iraq was a strategical error at that time for the USA.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Actually, a U.S Embassy is considered sovereign U.S territory. Therefore, the attacks on our embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya were in fact on U.S soil.

And as i've said, if you wish to talk about "On American Soil" instead of "Within American Borders" then it STILL fails because we have had attacks on the American Embassy in Iraq since 9/11 by terrorists so if you wish to judge it by that standard than AGAIN, its happened under Bush AND Clinton.

I swear to god though, you people seem to refuse to actually READ what people write. I will ask again, PLEASE, show me where I said the way Clinton handled things is the better way. Find it for me. I BEG you, please, I'll anxiously wait. Just because I disagree with Mr. V.'s METHOD of coming to his conclussion and disagree with the extent of Mr. V's conclussion does NOT mean that I necessarily AGREE with Clinton's policy.

No wonder so many of you can't freaking understand that correlation doesn't equal causation, you can't even apply it in every day debating scenarios.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

What is false about asking about the supposed WMD's ?

Because it presumes that Bush was lying about the belief that Saddam was reconstituting WMDs and the substantive evidence supporting those views which were identical to the previous administration; AND, also presumes that this was the ONLY and primary reason for the invasion. Both of these, of course, are false and only used by rabid partisans attempting to use the issue for divisive partisan political purposes.

Great wonderful let the world deal with it. In the mean time invading Iraq was a strategical error at that time for the USA.

Once again this requires willful denial of what is currently occurring in Iraq and just another of those "because you say it is so."

I would beg to differ and with time, history will correctly show that Bush's vision was a success and the efforts of Liberal Democrats to de-rail those efforts for purely partisan political purposes were reprehensible and put America at greater risk.

Again, my prediction is purely hypothetical, but contains more historical factual support than your versions of history.

I am always fascinated when rabid partisans like yourself vehemently argue that we need to give Obama more time to save the economy before we judge his actions, yet before events unfolded in Iraq, pronounced the efforts of our forces a failure.

Why do you think that is?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Well if Putin says it, it must be 100% accurate and completely in the US's best interest.

That was not the point; but then, you already knew that which is why you avoid any substance. :2wave:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Well if Putin says it, it must be 100% accurate and completely in the US's best interest.

Like it would be in our best interest to ignore him? Why would our government not take this very seriously? Maybe decide it's the last straw.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Because it presumes that Bush was lying about the belief that Saddam was reconstituting WMDs

Talk about will full denial? Bush was wrong.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

It does? I'm asking seriously.

Yes. For example, if a non-citizen comes here and commits a crime, they have the same rights to a trial and council that you have. The reason for this is that the constitution does not apply to citizens, it applies to the federal government. Its a document that specifies what the federal government is allowed to do.

For example, the government can make no law abridging freedom of speech, press, religion, or assembly.

No where does it state that restriction only applies to U.S. citizens. The only time the constitution just applies to citizens is when it expressly states it does (such as the qualifications for public office).
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

More fascinating denial; do tell me what terrorist internees held at Gitmo were captured on US soil and then held on US soil?

The constitution is a document that limits the powers of the federal government wherever that power is exercised regardless of whether its in Chicago or leased land in Cuba.

This is patently false with not one factual instance to support it.

Emotional fabricated arguments not based in facts or historic precedent doesn’t have a place in any honest intellectual debate.

How is it false? If you allow the government to torture those who are deemed enemies of the state, then what protects anyone from being labeled as an enemy of the state?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Like it would be in our best interest to ignore him? Why would our government not take this very seriously? Maybe decide it's the last straw.

Because it was coming from one of the most corrupt governments in one of the most corrupt nations on earth.

Is it in your best interests to ignore a pathological liar?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Well, I am curious why Americans purposely targeted for the fact that they are Americans should not count in Ikari's and others minds as well.

But alas, this same fantastical mental state suggests that we will all be safer now that we are attempting to impugn members of the Bush Administration for their efforts to keep us safe, public statements that we will never engage in "nation" building again, public statements that we will never use any "enhanced" interrogation methods to extract information because ANY form of it is inhumane and public statements that we will close Gitmo and try terrorists as common criminals with Constitutional rights.

Our enemies have to be either laughing at us, or smiling and nodding in quiet agreement with the current naive ignorance that infests our Government these days. A Government that while making life safer for terrorists the world over, also buries us in debt that will prevent us from acting in any event for at least the next ten years!

You cannot fabricate the level of stupidity these Democrats and this President wallow in to act the way they are acting; and the “unbiased” media continues to fawn over them.

Can't fabricate the level of stupidity the big government fascists wallow in. To act like we're going to be destroyed by a gust of wind so that they can justify their further expansion.

The debt thing is funny because while Obama certainly isn't doing anything to curtail it; neither did Bush. We're approaching, what, 1 trillion dollars on Iraq. Yeah...good call.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

How did that stuff actually work out? Oh yeah.

We have no idea how it worked out. You don't need WMDs to perform terrorist acts.

Putin warns Bush that Saddam is planning terrorist attacks. Bush ignores him. Saddam comits terrorist acts against the US.

The people demand George Bush's head on a platter for ignoring Putin's clear warning.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Talk about will full denial? Bush was wrong.

Yes Bush was wrong about this issue; and your point is?

Bush was wrong, the British and the Russians were wrong, the previous Democrat administration was wrong, and members of congress were wrong; about Saddam’s "reconstituting" his WMD program.

The facts are they were wrong based on the best intelligence available and Saddam's own admission that he purposely sought to lead everyone to think he had them because he was MORE afraid of the threat from Iran then that of a US led coalition.

So what is your point? Once again, if you read the Joint Resolution and were better informed, this debate was never JUST about WMDs.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Because it was coming from one of the most corrupt governments in one of the most corrupt nations on earth.

Is it in your best interests to ignore a pathological liar?

Am I reading your statements correctly here and see them as directed at the USA?

If so, they are beyond patently false; they are incredibly offensive.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Yes. For example, if a non-citizen comes here and commits a crime, they have the same rights to a trial and council that you have. The reason for this is that the constitution does not apply to citizens, it applies to the federal government. Its a document that specifies what the federal government is allowed to do.

For example, the government can make no law abridging freedom of speech, press, religion, or assembly.

No where does it state that restriction only applies to U.S. citizens. The only time the constitution just applies to citizens is when it expressly states it does (such as the qualifications for public office).

What does this argument have to do with the thread or the entire debate for that matter? When has this occurred?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

And now we can see where it doesn't work.

Report: Abusive tactics used in effort to find Iraq-al Qaida link

WASHINGTON — The Bush administration applied relentless pressure on interrogators to use harsh methods on detainees in part to find evidence of cooperation between al Qaida and the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's regime, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official and a former Army psychiatrist.

Such information would've provided a foundation for one of former President George W. Bush's main arguments for invading Iraq in 2003. In fact, no evidence has ever been found of operational ties between Osama bin Laden's terrorist network and Saddam's regime.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

The constitution is a document that limits the powers of the federal government wherever that power is exercised regardless of whether its in Chicago or leased land in Cuba.

This is false; please cite any constitutional authority on the US Constitution who would make this claim.

How is it false? If you allow the government to torture those who are deemed enemies of the state, then what protects anyone from being labeled as an enemy of the state?

Because you are ignoring the FACT that what occurred does not fit your version of the facts.

The people who these enhanced methods were used on were unlawful illegal combatants captured in foreign lands fighting against our troops. They don’t represent a nation and they were not captured on US soil and they were attempting to kill US/Coalition troops.

Once more for the sake of clarity and coherent argument, please try to remain cognizant that we are debating REAL facts and assertions not those fabricated in your mind.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

We have no idea how it worked out. You don't need WMDs to perform terrorist acts.

Certainly don't. However, does that mean if anyone is alleged a terrorist we have just right to go in under an occupational war? Even if the alleged is a leader of a sovereign country? Without formal declaration of war, we're then in the right to go in and take out that government, remove the leader, occupy the country, and try to create some government in the image of our government? Even if chances are it won't be long term stable?

I think there was plenty to have done before we went the route we did. I also don't think that Saddam had much to do with terrorists that wasn't just antagonistic. There were not massive terrorist camps (at least not on the scale there are in Saudi Arabia), and Saddam was just running his mouth against the US for the most part. I think in the end he liked be dictator and would have preferred to act in a way not to actually threaten the US so that he may remain the dictator. But that's done and over with. We do need to learn from this mistake, however. It has taken far too long, cost far too much money, and wasted far too many lives of our military.

Putin warns Bush that Saddam is planning terrorist attacks. Bush ignores him. Saddam comits terrorist acts against the US.

Why would he have to be successful if he tried? Is there no option for us having stopped him? Had Saddam been the one to orchestrate and initiate the attacks of 9/11 against us; I would have said Iraq is a viable target (I wouldn't say we had to bring them democracy). But they didn't, they didn't have anything to do with it in any real sense. We got distracted, we got bogged down, and it's cost us dearly. Those are the facts.

The people demand George Bush's head on a platter for ignoring Putin's clear warning.

Demand his head on a platter anyway. All the stuff that's coming out now about his administration....he was doing some shady **** against the American people. Too much government, that's the real problem.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I bet the dude that is the supposed mastermind of 9/11 is ****ing hallucinating.

Scientists Claim CIA Misused Work on Sleep Deprivation - TIME

The study in question by Kundermann, which was published in 2004 in the journal Psychosomatic Medicine, found that people who were deprived of sleep for one night had an increased sensitivity to certain types of pain. Two Justice Department memos, dated May 10, 2005, cited this study as justification to conclude that severe sleep deprivation of up to 180 consecutive hours might cause some increased pain but not "severe physical pain" when used in conjunction with facial slaps, stress positions, water dousing and walling, in which a detainee is slammed against a flexible wall.

"Because sleep deprivation appears to cause at most only relatively moderate decreases in pain tolerance, the use of these techniques in combination with extended sleep deprivation would not be expected to cause severe physical pain," wrote Steven Bradbury, a principal deputy assistant attorney general in the Office of Legal Counsel, who authored the memos.

Kundermann, who found out about the CIA's use of his work from a TIME reporter, said his research did not justify the Justice Department's conclusion. "We were working with healthy volunteers and didn't deprive them of sleep for more than one day without allowing them to recover," he said. "Even under these circumstances, certain changes can occur, such as hallucinations, depending on the individual's condition."
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Am I reading your statements correctly here and see them as directed at the USA?

If so, they are beyond patently false; they are incredibly offensive.

Its obvious in context that I was referring to Russia.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
5. Does the use of such techniques raise the likihood that our soldiers in future wars against groups that previously did not routinely use such techniques or worse will be subject to such techniques due to the expectation that the U.S. will be doing it to theirs?

The techniques described in the report are pretty mild when compared to the decapitation practiced by Muslim radicals.

Did you note also that the techniques described were those that our military submits to in SERE training? Did you note that the implementation guidelines for those techniques were governed by experience gained by subjecting our military to them during SERE training over quite a long period of time?
 
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